RYA - lost the plot?

[oldbilbo]

....Argued in one of the yottie comics.

It's about simplifying, or further 'dumbing down', of the RYA National Training Syllabus to avoid/evade the need for training in tidal conditions.

There are those who reckon one will soon be able to get an 'RYA Certificate of Competence' on the basis of a VR-app checkride.

The question I ask - and the relevant one IMHO ( from the first Principal of SCPR Outdoors Centre Glenmore Lodge, Eric Langmuir ) - is 'Would you entrust your children to those people?' He was speaking in relation to 'going on the Scottish mountains', but the same principle applies to going on the seas.

I find it difficult to maintain confidence in the underpinning values of tha RYA's Training Syllabus.

 

[Seajet]

This has been the route ever since experience was disregarded with ' buy your way to a quick yachtmaster and instantly become an instructor with a nice sun tan '...

 

[JumbleDuck]

....Argued in one of the yottie comics.

It's about simplifying, or further 'dumbing down', of the RYA National Training Syllabus to avoid/evade the need for training in tidal conditions.

Do they really call it a "national" syllabus now? As I read the article, the insistence on tidal experience was harming their income from Mediterranean
sea schools, so it had to go. I reckon the rot set in, though, when they rebranded Coast Skipper as Yachtmaster Coastal. Not that I have either, you understand. I have Elementary Dayboat with Tidal Endorsement.

 

[Seajet]

My ex - FIL - who could sail racing dinghies on lakes just fine but was as much use on a yacht as a space hopper - had a ' Certificate Of Competence, Non Tidal Waters ' - from the RYA I'm pretty sure - in the 1990's so as to charter boats in the Med'.

It worked fine, as it got him his holiday boat while warning any serious sailor ' this way comes a plonker '.

What was wrong with that ? - let me guess, not enough expensive BS to run an industry rubber stamping holiday charterers...

They're missing a trick there; surely anyone going on an airliner to their Med charter needs to do a sea survival course in case of ditching.

 

[Uricanejack]

Are you sure they "dumbed" the regular one down. Or did they Brighten the non tidal one up a bit.

 

[ditchcrawler]

I notice from the RYA statement that all people that do a course will come away with an understanding of tides. That seems to be better than the current situation where people who do a non tidal course are not instructed in tides.

 

[Seajet]

But as with my ex-FIL, he didn't NEED to know tides, he just wanted a cheap easily gained certificate to say he knew one end of a boat from another to satisfy charter companies; and I got the strong impression he was Chay Blythe compared to his international fellow charterers.

If he'd needed to know tides and proper navigation there was always Dazed Kipper and the progression to Yachtmaster to fork out on - IF he gained the relevant experience.

 

[alant]

This has been the route ever since experience was disregarded with ' buy your way to a quick yachtmaster and instantly become an instructor with a nice sun tan '...

That sort of training seemed to work during WW2 though didn't it, with very young guys from all backgrounds, being trusted to do many dangerous & complex tasks, so why is it wrong 70 yrs later?
Hardly think there were enough experienced helmsmen available for 6th June 44, so D Day would have been delayed many years, using your criteria.

 

[l'escargot]

That sort of training seemed to work during WW2 though didn't it, with very young guys from all backgrounds, being trusted to do many dangerous & complex tasks, so why is it wrong 70 yrs later?
Hardly think there were enough experienced helmsmen available for 6th June 44, so D Day would have been delayed many years, using your criteria.

Even the RNLI seem willing to take on people with little or no experience these days and put them through the courses...

 

[dom]

That sort of training seemed to work during WW2 though didn't it, with very young guys from all backgrounds, being trusted to do many dangerous & complex tasks, so why is it wrong 70 yrs later?
Hardly think there were enough experienced helmsmen available for 6th June 44, so D Day would have been delayed many years, using your criteria.

Good point, but if the circumstances permit I'd still rather be a fully trained Eurofighter Typhoon pilot than a fast-tracked Lancaster crew.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

....Argued in one of the yottie comics.

It's about simplifying, or further 'dumbing down', of the RYA National Training Syllabus to avoid/evade the need for training in tidal conditions.

There are those who reckon one will soon be able to get an 'RYA Certificate of Competence' on the basis of a VR-app checkride.

The question I ask - and the relevant one IMHO ( from the first Principal of SCPR Outdoors Centre Glenmore Lodge, Eric Langmuir ) - is 'Would you entrust your children to those people?' He was speaking in relation to 'going on the Scottish mountains', but the same principle applies to going on the seas.

I find it difficult to maintain confidence in the underpinning values of tha RYA's Training Syllabus.

In the 1980's I was chatting to some fellow instructors over the 'Thursday evening last night of course beer'. I made the observation then that the RYA would have no alternative to becoming a 'Ponzi' scheme, ever increasing it's radius of customers even, if necessary, to the detriment of standards, simply to fund the pensions and benefits of the then staff.
I was laughed at back then, they aren't laughing now.

 

[Seajet]

That sort of training seemed to work during WW2 though didn't it, with very young guys from all backgrounds, being trusted to do many dangerous & complex tasks, so why is it wrong 70 yrs later?
Hardly think there were enough experienced helmsmen available for 6th June 44, so D Day would have been delayed many years, using your criteria.

I had no idea there was an emergency war situation threatening the entire fabric of society, our lives and our country unless we can whip up some pretend Yachtmasters !

Have Sunsail finally shown their true colours and applied the Swastika to their Heinkel/Bav/Jens ?

 

[alant]

Good point, but if the circumstances permit I'd still rather be a fully trained Eurofighter Typhoon pilot than a fast-tracked Lancaster crew.

Don't remember any Eurofighters being around then.

The point being, that having years of 'experience', doesn't guarantee effectiveness.
How many 'old salts' on here, would you trust taking your family offshore?

 

[Retired in Crete]

I had no idea there was an emergency war situation threatening the entire fabric of society, our lives and our country unless we can whip up some pretend Yachtmasters !

There is if we vote to leave the EU according to Cameron.

John

 

[Seajet]

See my post above which coincided with yours.

I have met some of these fast track types; I was particularly impressed by them bragging about how much damage they'd done pushing boats into gales and lifting the decks off the hulls; when one asked to have a go on my Dart 18 my reply was ' not as long as I draw breath '.

Too right I'd trust experience first.

Remember that ever since we first heard the word ' recession ' a long time ago, a nasty little sub-industry has grown up whose sole aim is to relieve jobseekers from their cash, be it benefits grants or redundancy packages.

" you can get a a job in X if you pay for our training " ranges from Microsoft Engineer Courses - the stuff changes every 2 years so constant updates required - to yes, ' I fancy being a sailing instructor '

I doubt the average boat owner finds any need for a fast track qualification...

 

[roblpm]

Do they really call it a "national" syllabus now? As I read the article, the insistence on tidal experience was harming their income from Mediterranean
sea schools, so it had to go. I reckon the rot set in, though, when they rebranded Coast Skipper as Yachtmaster Coastal. Not that I have either, you understand. I have Elementary Dayboat with Tidal Endorsement.

I sort of dont get this often quoted example.

http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/sailcruising/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

I have coastal skipper. It is a practical course completion certificate like day skipper. The theory course is the same course for taking the coastal skipper course or doing the Yachtmaster coastal exam.

Yachtmaster Coastal involves a practical exam and some experience requirements.

 

[dom]

The point being, that having years of 'experience', doesn't guarantee effectiveness.
How many 'old salts' on here, would you trust taking your family offshore?

Not many and that takes us to the heart of the matter:

Like most people on here I trust a trained commercial pilot working for a reputable airline to safely fly a plane. I would not, however trust a private pilot (experienced or not) as the base qualification and standard of aircraft maintenance is several notches below. Some are great, some not, one needs to know the individual.

A Yachtsmaster ticket on the other hand, fast-tracked or otherwise, is a purchasable commodity for those who wish, often for perfectly sensible reasons such as chartering a larger yacht. I've no problem with that because I, like most sailors, understand that the YM (as a hard qualification) is several more notches below a private pilots licence

I would therefore only trust sailors I know to sail a boat safely offshore regardless of any tickets they may hold. Nothing personal here, there is simply nothing comparable to BA, Lufthansa, or Singapore Airways in the yachting world, in which we just kinda trust. And I bet that's the way most people see it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

How many 'old salts' on here, would you trust taking your family offshore?

I don't know, but whether or not they held a Yachtmaster^TM certificate would make no difference to my decision. Like a car with an MOT, a sailor with a Yachtmaster^TM only has to meet a limited number of criteria on one day.

I sort of dont get this often quoted example.

http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/sailcruising/Pages/Coastalskipper.aspx

I have coastal skipper. It is a practical course completion certificate like day skipper. The theory course is the same course for taking the coastal skipper course or doing the Yachtmaster coastal exam.

Yachtmaster Coastal involves a practical exam and some experience requirements.

Ah, you kids.

Coastal Skipper practical used to be an exam. Some years ago they rebranded that as Yachtmaster Coastal and made Coastal Skipper the practical course completion certificate.

 

[lw395]

Not many and that takes us to the heart of the matter:

Like most people on here I trust a trained commercial pilot working for a reputable airline to safely fly a plane. I would not, however trust a private pilot (experienced or not) as the base qualification and standard of aircraft maintenance is several notches below. Some are great, some not, one needs to know the individual.

A Yachtsmaster ticket on the other hand, fast-tracked or otherwise, is a purchasable commodity for those who wish, often for perfectly sensible reasons such as chartering a larger yacht. I've no problem with that because I, like most sailors, understand that the YM (as a hard qualification) is several more notches below a private pilots licence

I would therefore only trust sailors I know to sail a boat safely offshore regardless of any tickets they may hold. Nothing personal here, there is simply nothing comparable to BA, Lufthansa, or Singapore Airways in the yachting world, in which we just kinda trust. And I bet that's the way most people see it.

I think YM is more comparable to a driving licence.
Probably similar number of hours and cost?
People trust their families with scantily qualified taxi drivers all the time.

The RYA/YM scheme is not perfect, but it seems to be about the best on offer.
It is understood worldwide in the industry.

The industry also understand the 'fast track' characters.
There are people out there who have done the fast track, then worked their way up from deckhand on a yacht. Two years later they are very good sailors with a lot of miles and a lot of practical experience.

The system works quite well for those who need it to work.
The pro's need a baseline qualification system, as well as experience.
People like us (amateurs) don't really need it. So if doesn't entirely work for us, we can just leave it alone.

But YM theory is pretty valuable as a baseline for amateurs.
And powerboat 2 is a pretty good match to what RIB owners need as a minimum IMHO.

 

[Seajet]

Not many and that takes us to the heart of the matter:

Like most people on here I trust a trained commercial pilot working for a reputable airline to safely fly a plane. I would not, however trust a private pilot (experienced or not) as the base qualification and standard of aircraft maintenance is several notches below. Some are great, some not, one needs to know the individual.

A Yachtsmaster ticket on the other hand, fast-tracked or otherwise, is a purchasable commodity for those who wish, often for perfectly sensible reasons such as chartering a larger yacht. I've no problem with that because I, like most sailors, understand that the YM (as a hard qualification) is several more notches below a private pilots licence

I would therefore only trust sailors I know to sail a boat safely offshore regardless of any tickets they may hold. Nothing personal here, there is simply nothing comparable to BA, Lufthansa, or Singapore Airways in the yachting world, in which we just kinda trust. And I bet that's the way most people see it.

When I was working on a barge in France I met a family of Americans ( they owned a marina in a well known prime American sailing port and a lot of other things ! ) who were very serious sailors, transatlantic and otherwise, the sort of people who sailed boats like ' Dorade ' any day of the week.

They had a very high regard for the British Yachtmaster ticket - Offshore and Ocean as the options were then, and reckoned there was no reliable rival to it internationally, at yachting level.

I bet they feel differently about it nowadays with fast tracks and ' Yachtmaster Coastal ' - the brand and term has been diluted.

Fact is, while I always had doubts about ' Competent Crew ' being of value to those paying for it ( someone did it on the YM course & exam I was on ) - ' Day Skipper - Coastal Skipper - Yachtmaster Offshore - Yachtmaster Ocean - worked very well indeed.

It has only been fiddled with and distorted so as to create revenue, which I don't think was the original aim of the courses and qualifications.