RUNNING BACKSTAYS When do I need to use them.

[TQA]

I have a 44 foot cutter with a 56 foot single spreader mast [ measured from the water ]. It has running backstays which come from the same point on the mast as the head of the staysail and a fixed non adjustable backstay from the top of the mast.

The staysail is not self tacking and has its own winches.

It is a cruisers mast not a bendy tapered racers mast.

The wire backstays have a block and tackle with a jam cleat at the base and attach to the toe rail with a snapshackle.

Most of the time I sail her without the staysail unless conditions are light when I have flown the staysail. I did not bother with the backstays then.

Most of the stuff I can find on using them seems race and sail shape orientated.

Do I need to use them at all?

I am guessing that I should use them in strong wind conditions when I have the genoa rolled away and am sailing with a reefed main and staysail only, is that correct?

But if I don't use them am I going to break the mast. Would I see the mast bending well before it reached failure point or is it going to be a sudden thing with the mast getting out of column and failing?

How far back on the toe rail should I go. Is further back better? Should they be about the same angle as the main backstay.

Say I am hard on the wind, would I have both tensioned or just the upwind one? The stuff I can find seems to say tension the upwind one only but warns of mast failure if you do not switch over when tacking.


So if I need to switch over when tacking what would be the sequence of operations when I tack. Assume I am single handed. I have an autopilot with a tack option.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I have sailed cruising and racing boats with running back stays. The windward running back stay is always on.

On one cruising boat you could be leisurely in setting them as the mast was very stiff. On another (the Sigma 362) the mast "pumped" badly when they were not taught. That mast was slender.

The problem with stiff masts is that they do not have to flex much to significantly strain the material.

My own boat has a cutter rig and there is an option without the stay sail. On my boat I have an additional set of aft intermediate shrouds, on the version without the stay sail they are not installed. The mast is the same on both boats and is stiff.

The deck position is typically back on the quarter but not right back on the stern. On a large cruising vessel that had a mizzen the running back stays were well forward of the mizzen mast, more towards the beam than aft. There should be a position on the boat already, suitably reinforced. The Sigma 362 had them attached to the toe rail, at least in the early days of that model.

I would recommend that you use them all the time if you do not have any other information on boat and its design.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have a 44 foot cutter with a 56 foot single spreader mast [ measured from the water ]. It has running backstays which come from the same point on the mast as the head of the staysail and a fixed non adjustable backstay from the top of the mast.

The staysail is not self tacking and has its own winches.

It is a cruisers mast not a bendy tapered racers mast.

The wire backstays have a block and tackle with a jam cleat at the base and attach to the toe rail with a snapshackle. Must be a strong snap-shackle!

Most of the time I sail her without the staysail unless conditions are light when I have flown the staysail. I did not bother with the backstays then.

Most of the stuff I can find on using them seems race and sail shape orientated.

Do I need to use them at all? Yes - see below

I am guessing that I should use them in strong wind conditions when I have the genoa rolled away and am sailing with a reefed main and staysail only, is that correct? Whenever its strong wind conditions - and whether you are using the genoa or not. I know that upwind and in V strong winds your are going to roll the genoa away, but what about going down wind using genoa and staysail and no main? This would be a time to use the runners!

But if I don't use them am I going to break the mast. Would I see the mast bending well before it reached failure point or is it going to be a sudden thing with the mast getting out of column and failing? Almost certainly yeas - but without seeing the section of your mast and the rig you are referring to, anything is a guess. Ask a rigger?

How far back on the toe rail should I go. Is further back better? Should they be about the same angle as the main backstay. The further back the better - within reason - as in you can clip them on and tighten them up ok.

Say I am hard on the wind, would I have both tensioned or just the upwind one? The stuff I can find seems to say tension the upwind one only but warns of mast failure if you do not switch over when tacking. Just the upwind one is fine. The leeward one will foul the main and you need to take that forward and clip it out of the way.


So if I need to switch over when tacking what would be the sequence of operations when I tack. Assume I am single handed. I have an autopilot with a tack option. Don't worry about it too much. I suggest you, "take the runner off first, tack the boat and put the new runner back on" will do fine as a sequence if you are cruising.

I think 'Blowing oldboots' is being a bit too conservative. I have sailed cruising boats with runners that were only needed when the staysail was set. Most of the time - and when sailing with the Genoa to a masthead rig - the runners can be tied forward out of the way.

 

[bbg]

Do I need to use them at all?

Difficult to say without seeing the setup - if the mast is beefy enough you might get by without them.

I am guessing that I should use them in strong wind conditions when I have the genoa rolled away and am sailing with a reefed main and staysail only, is that correct?

That would be my guess. When the staysail is on, in heavy air, especially upwind, it will pull that part of the mast forward (i.e. where forestay is attached). The head of the main, when reefed, will pull that part of the mast (i.e. where the head of the main is) aft - particularly if there is a lot of mainsheet tension. The running backstays will stabilise the mast.

But if I don't use them am I going to break the mast. Would I see the mast bending well before it reached failure point or is it going to be a sudden thing with the mast getting out of column and failing?

Difficult to say without seeing the setup, but from what you describe I suspect you wouldn't lose the mast - at least not immediately. I also suspect that you would be more likely to see the mast pumping (rather than just bending in one direction), and that you would see a lot of pumping before any failure (if there ever were a failure). Given what you say about the mast section, a single and immediate catastrophic failure due to not putting on the backstay seems unlikely.

How far back on the toe rail should I go. Is further back better? Should they be about the same angle as the main backstay.

Generally speaking, the further the better, but matching the angle to the backstay should be fine. Make sure that it is somewhere convenient i.e. won't foul other equipment, and that the toerail is beefy enough to take considerable loads.

Say I am hard on the wind, would I have both tensioned or just the upwind one? The stuff I can find seems to say tension the upwind one only but warns of mast failure if you do not switch over when tacking.

Only the windward one.

So if I need to switch over when tacking what would be the sequence of operations when I tack. Assume I am single handed. I have an autopilot with a tack option.

My sequence: prepare jib sheets for tacking, prepare main sheet and traveller for tacking. Make sure windward backstay tail is free to run. Tension leeward backstay as much as possible, until it is pressing against the main / boom. Tack, sort out jib - at least 90%. Fully tension new windward backstay. Release leeward backstay (ideally don't just "blow" it, but ease it). Finish sorting jib, if necessary. Sort main.

As a tip - the leeward backstay can swing around wildly, particularly in big waves. There can be a temptation to pull it in a bit and make it off. Don't do this - if you need to ease the main in a hurry you won't be able to. An alternative is to attach a clothes peg near the tail of the backstay. Pull in the backstay and put the tail in the peg. It will hold the backstay provided there is not too much tension on it. If you try to ease the main, the peg should release or let the backstay tail run through.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I claim a "Lakesailor" especially as the replies are almost word for word what I said in my reply.

Nice tip on the clothes peg - but I think on a cruising boat you can tie the runner forward out of the way until you need it for the next tack. Some people put bungy on them to hold them forward out of the way.

 

[TiggerToo]

“There once was a man from Peru
Whose limericks stopped at line two."

But then went through the door
and found he was poor
and that he overshot the penultimate line four

 

[john_morris_uk]

“There once was a man from Peru
Whose limericks stopped at line two."

But then went through the door
and found he was poor
and that he overshot the penultimate line four

The trouble is Pietro, the two line limerick appeals to my warped sense of humour, but I like the theory behind your attempt.

My sense of humour is also illustrated by my favourite one line joke.

A woman went into a bar and asked for a "double entendre" so the barman gave her one.

 

[[2574]]

A woman went into a bar and asked for a "double entendre" so the barman gave her one.

John,

I think that's a triple entendre actually!

Rob

 

[mattnj]

i have just been through the same questions with my local rigger on our 38, as we find them a pain, always in the way and banging around on the rig, he has convinced me, that they are not need and "no one uses them anymore!" which i was a bit uncomfortable about, but he shot up the mast and removed them for good. Let hope he is correct!

 

[robin_99]

“There once was a man from Peru
Whose limericks stopped at line two."

There once was a man from Verdun.

(Courtesy of Irish swmbo )

 

[2Tizwoz]

From the Selden website http://www.seldenmast.com/firstpage.cfm

'Adding a cutter stay to a masthead rig

Running backstays may be necessary if a cutter stay for a storm jib or staysail is fitted.

Option 1: The cutter stay is located 3-6% of the height of the foretriangle below the existing forestay. In this case, running backstays are not required to tension the cutter stay.

Option 2: The cutter stay is located more than 6% of the height of the foretriangle below the existing forestay. In this case, running backstays are necessary. The forestay fitting should be fitted within 1000 mm of the spreaders, with the running backstays preferably 300-500 mm above. Whichever option is chosen, the amount of material cut out from the mast may be over-concentrated in a small area. Please contact Seldén Mast for advice on the correct fastenings and the correct location of the fastenings, as well as the halyard control system.'

The answer is not completely straightforward however as the design of the extrusion used for the mast influences the need to have the extra support of the backstay. Did the rigger who inspected the mast know which section was used?

The previous owner of my boat lost the mast. He didn't go into great detail but simply said that you have to be quick with the backstays.

 

[TQA]

Mast size and standing rigging update

My mast is 10 x 5 3/4 inches essentially rectangular with rounded corners in section.

I have additional stays from the spreaders to an intermediate point between the top of the staysail and the masthead. see pic.

Thanks for all the advice on this. My goal in sailing nowadays is to avoid situations when I need a double reefed main and staysail only but I like to be prepared for the worst. As my hang gliding instructor said "Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance".

I like the clothes peg idea and am away drilling holes for lanyards so I don't lose them.

I will have a play with them on my next passage when I am not singlehanding in case I have a major catastrophe.

 

[bbg]

I like the clothes peg idea and am away drilling holes for lanyards so I don't lose them.

No need to drill. Just run some very light line through the center of the spring. I use plastic pegs (and that reminds me I need to take a few spares for next season).
A variant on the system can be used if the backstay runs down to the chainplate and then to a turning block before the cleat / jammer. If the peg is on a short strop between the chainplate and the turning block, tensioning the backstay will automatically pull it out of the peg.

 

[pyrojames]

I use mine whenever the staysail is up. Either in heavy weather with a deep reefed main, or in light stuff when have staysail and genoa. When the wind pipes up, the Yankee/genoa comes in first, so except for hard on the wind in light conditions, the staysail is up all the time.

Tacking is straight forward, gybing is more of a handfull, but then the staysail is not powered up and the runners are not so critical.

 

[Quandary]

i have just been through the same questions with my local rigger on our 38, as we find them a pain, always in the way and banging around on the rig, he has convinced me, that they are not need and "no one uses them anymore!" which i was a bit uncomfortable about, but he shot up the mast and removed them for good. Let hope he is correct!

If you are referring to the Sigma 38, your rigger is (almost) correct. I kept mine but they were close to an affectation once we stopped racing her hard. A shockcord around the front of the mast above the spreaders reduced the 'banging about' when they were in use. They serve no structural purpose but do allow you to apply more tension to the forestay when beating in strong winds. The backstay alone bends the rig an awful lot because with 3/4 rigs there is a lot of mast above the forestay. I must admit that in very windy gusty beats putting a runner on hard gave a feeling of comfort. With our roller reefing dacron cruising headsails they were probably not very effective.

 

[simonfraser]

the top of my non tapering masts on various multihulls allways pulls out of centre, not broken one yet

how far, by the diameter of the mast at least, so you can sure see it if you look up the centre.

reduce sail or put one of the stays on i'd say.