Rules, overlapped boats approaching a mark.

[[163233]]

Well, never thought I'd be posting in this section as I'm not really into racing, hence my no doubt total noob question.

Thought I'd have a bash at the club races recently as it's a very informal affair and I felt I should probably participate a bit in the club. Had this been a hardcore racing crowd I wouldn't have bothered, which sort of sets the scene.

Imagine this, I'm A, boats B & C are considerably quicker but must have really fluffed the start, A will arrive at the mark first if B doesn't ram him (which actually looked likely):-

                                                       O <- Next mark (Leave to port)

             O <- The mark (Leave to starboard)

            ^
            A
            A      ^
            A      B
                   B    ^                      <--- Wind
                   B    C
                        C
                        C

All on starboard and all will have to tack at the mark the wind being a bit more north-easterly than the diagram suggests.
Does A need to give B and/or C any space at all?

In the event I gave them space as they were clearly taking it much more personally than I was and I didn't fancy the swim back with the weather being a bit nippy.

 

[Keen_Ed]

If a is overlapped with b, and b overlapped with c when a reaches the 3 lengths zone, a has to give mark room to b (including enough room for c) and b has to give mark room to c. Mark room here includes room for b and c both to tack.

See RRS 18, and the definition of mark room.

 

[flaming]

Well, never thought I'd be posting in this section as I'm not really into racing, hence my no doubt total noob question.

Thought I'd have a bash at the club races recently as it's a very informal affair and I felt I should probably participate a bit in the club. Had this been a hardcore racing crowd I wouldn't have bothered, which sort of sets the scene.

Imagine this, I'm A, boats B & C are considerably quicker but must have really fluffed the start, A will arrive at the mark first if B doesn't ram him (which actually looked likely):-

                                                       O <- Next mark (Leave to port)

             O <- The mark (Leave to starboard)

            ^
            A
            A      ^
            A      B
                   B    ^                      <--- Wind
                   B    C
                        C
                        C

All on starboard and all will have to tack at the mark the wind being a bit more north-easterly than the diagram suggests.
Does A need to give B and/or C any space at all?

In the event I gave them space as they were clearly taking it much more personally than I was and I didn't fancy the swim back with the weather being a bit nippy.

Your diagram shows them to be overlapped, and that is the essence of the issue!

The relavant rule is Rule 18, and the definitions required are Clear Astern / Overlap and Mark Room.

18 MARK-ROOM
18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a
mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19
applies.
18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is
broken or a new overlap begins;
(2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to
mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her
proper course while they remain overlapped.
However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind
or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply.
(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by
tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the
overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give markroom,
she is not required to give it.

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap

One boat is clear astern of another
when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam
from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal
position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear
astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both.
These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They do not apply to
boats on opposite tacks unless rule 18 applies or both boats are sailing more
than ninety degrees from the true wind.

Mark-Room

Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close
to it, and
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is
overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room
and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

So unpacking that we see that if when the leading boat (A in this case) got to within 3 boatlengths of the mark B was overlapped inside of her, then A must give B room to pass the mark on the correct side. And since she is inside overlapped then if she had to tack at the mark, then A must give room for B to do this.
Now C is also overlapped inside B and since the definition of overlap says "They also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both" then we see that C is actually overlapped with both A and B for the purpose or Rule 18. So therefore.

A must B and C room to round the mark, including room to tack as inside overlapped boat.
B must give C room to round the mark, including room to tack as inside overlapped boat.

 

[[163233]]

Cheers, probably a good job I didn't stand on then..

 

[savageseadog]

Well, never thought I'd be posting in this section as I'm not really into racing, hence my no doubt total noob question.

Thought I'd have a bash at the club races recently as it's a very informal affair and I felt I should probably participate a bit in the club. Had this been a hardcore racing crowd I wouldn't have bothered, which sort of sets the scene..................

.

I'd be careful about "informal" racing as bumps and rig failures are far from informal to deal with. Anyone racing must have racing insurance and must abide by the RRS otherwise it may end in tears. If it's described as a race and has results then it must be treated as a proper race.

 

[drakes drum]

I'd be careful about "informal" racing as bumps and rig failures are far from informal to deal with. Anyone racing must have racing insurance and must abide by the RRS otherwise it may end in tears. If it's described as a race and has results then it must be treated as a proper race.

Yes and no. Its sense to have racing cover. Its very wise if you hit another boat or another hits you to have a protest hearing - the insurance company might well expect this. However most sensible racers expect some damage through racing even if its only broken blocks or shredded sails. So usually there is a more reasonable and less anal approach to issues amongst the fleet

 

[Pagetslady]

Your diagram shows them to be overlapped, and that is the essence of the issue!

The relavant rule is Rule 18, and the definitions required are Clear Astern / Overlap and Mark Room.

at 4 boat lenghts am I right in saying A can sail his course and tack at the Mark?
Mike





So unpacking that we see that if when the leading boat (A in this case) got to within 3 boatlengths of the mark B was overlapped inside of her, then A must give B room to pass the mark on the correct side. And since she is inside overlapped then if she had to tack at the mark, then A must give room for B to do this.
Now C is also overlapped inside B and since the definition of overlap says "They also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both" then we see that C is actually overlapped with both A and B for the purpose or Rule 18. So therefore.

A must B and C room to round the mark, including room to tack as inside overlapped boat.
B must give C room to round the mark, including room to tack as inside overlapped boat.