Row away factor

[JRCO26]

When I embarked on my first boat search many years ago, I had the words of my childhood ringing in my ears, learnt from my father and his sailing friends .... things like "row away factor" ... "classic" ... "ocean going" ... "seaworthy" ... and it was associated with the boats they lusted after ... Contessas, Rustlers, Nicholsons etc. ... so that's where I started looking.

Sorry to say they were all a monumental disappointment. As a family of five we had chartered a few times in modern boats, and had a great time in Scotland, Greece and Croatia ... but when I went to look at examples of these classics - chasing that nostalgic dream of yesteryear, I couldn't get my family to go near them. Small, cramped, smelly, old, worn, impractical .... and they were unfortunately right. In every practical sense, the chance of finding a concours winner was nil.

I then realised what row-away factor actually means ... the further you get from them, the better they look.

In the end we bought a 1999 Bavaria 36 and it was a fantastic boat, not too bad looking, and streets ahead of the classics for practicality. We had years of fun on her and she became part of the family.

Now I've moved on to another Bavaria ... and she doesn't look too bad either ... even close up. I love looking at older boats with all that nostalgia, and I admire the people who have the time and patience to keep them afloat, but I am happy not to own one.

Nice post.
But, it proves how different we all are. I'd rather be sentenced to a years solitary confinement in room with endless video replays of a Donald Trump Rally blaring on a loop 24/7 than own a Bavaria.
Nothing truer said that we all have different tastes.

 

[billskip]

Nice post.
But, it proves how different we all are. I'd rather be sentenced to a years solitary confinement in room with endless video replays of a Donald Trump Rally blaring on a loop 24/7 than own a Bavaria.
Nothing truer said that we all have different tastes.

They are not that bad then......

 

[johnalison]

Nice post.
But, it proves how different we all are. I'd rather be sentenced to a years solitary confinement in room with endless video replays of a Donald Trump Rally blaring on a loop 24/7 than own a Bavaria.
Nothing truer said that we all have different tastes.

A Bavaria is not to my taste, though they do what it says on the tin, but I think that directly criticising someone’s choice of boat is actually a little worse than criticising his choice of wife, and something I generally try to avoid.

 

[KevinV]

A Bavaria is not to my taste, though they do what it says on the tin, but I think that directly criticising someone’s choice of boat is actually a little worse than criticising his choice of wife, and something I generally try to avoid.

In fairness though, the moniker "Mrs Baggywrinkle" doesn't conjour lustful images in the mind's eye, so having a go at his boat is possibly less impolite?

 

[Sea Change]

Nice post.
But, it proves how different we all are. I'd rather be sentenced to a years solitary confinement in room with endless video replays of a Donald Trump Rally blaring on a loop 24/7 than own a Bavaria.
Nothing truer said that we all have different tastes.

Is that based on experience of owning and sailing one?

 

[LittleSister]

It's all a matter of taste . . .



or lack of it!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Nice post.
But, it proves how different we all are. I'd rather be sentenced to a years solitary confinement in room with endless video replays of a Donald Trump Rally blaring on a loop 24/7 than own a Bavaria.
Nothing truer said that we all have different tastes.

In fairness though, the moniker "Mrs Baggywrinkle" doesn't conjour lustful images in the mind's eye, so having a go at his boat is possibly less impolite?

Just to avoid any assumptions about either the boats or the wives, here are the offending Bavarias and the 2 Mrs Baggywrinkles (on Bavarias.)





2 Bavarias, a 36 and a 44 Vision, virtually moored next to each other...... the 36 is now being enjoyed by a gentleman from Slovenia, who I'm assured is very happy with his purchase.

 

[KevinV]

Just to avoid any assumptions about either the boats or the wives, here are the offending Bavarias and the 2 Mrs Baggywrinkles (on Bavarias.)



View attachment 196984View attachment 196985

2 Bavarias, a 36 and a 44 Vision, virtually moored next to each other...... the 36 is now being enjoyed by a gentleman from Slovenia, who I'm assured is very happy with his purchase.

View attachment 196994

There are just so many "wrong" responses possible here

I'll stick with "That'll do"

 

[Baggywrinkle]

There are just so many "wrong" responses possible here

I'll stick with "That'll do"

Good, because I can't vouch for the happiness of the the ex wife or her new partner ... ... rowing away from that one was a sound move.

.... but the first boat went to a good home ....

 

[Baggywrinkle]

... but back to row away factor.

It's pure nostalgia, which in itself forms part of this omnipresent wish (usually from older generations) to return to some vague time in the past where things were somehow "better". This is a dangerous fallacy.

Nostalgia can be, and is used to deliberately gaslight and manipulate ... a form of under specification that is vague enough to gain broad approval, but not specific enough for the proposer to be held to account. When you dig into the details of past compared to present, there are a few things that have got worse, but for the vast majority things are better.

When it comes to boats, boats were smaller, they had things like chain storage which drained into the bilges, the bilges themselves had inaccessible corners where crud, oil, and water accumulated. Engines were unreliable compared to modern ones, sails were hanked on instead of having roller furling, and tied to the guard rails when not raised. Cockpits were small and took ages to drain through tiny holes, the hulls were solid fiberglass, fighting condensation and mould was part of life. The crew were forced to share their limited space with a sail wardrobe. Most boats of that era had salt-water taps instead of fresh water systems dispensing hot and cold water on tap. Heating was at best a solid fuel heater or a stove (if your boat was big enough to accommodate the heater and carry the fuel). The hull shapes were initially evolved from wooden boats, so they had a deep forefoot and a long keel because that was the only way a wooden hull could be made strong enough. Later these hulls were distorted by IOR rules to produce the hull shapes of the late 70s, early 80s. The resultant hobby-horsing, low freeboard, high angles of heel, pinched sterns, narrow beam, and refusal to behave in reverse, not to mention a generally wet sailing experience were just part of the package .... but they evoke nostalgia, a "get-out-of-jail-free" card for all of their failings - but worst of all, they are pretty much all very old and worn out, they've been in the budget-bin of sailboats for decades and have suffered as a result. By all means rescue them, spend time and money on improvements, repairs, and updates, but they will still have fundamental drawbacks that can't be fixed. They suit a certain type of sailor, but certainly not the majority.

The modern AWB manufacturers have only reached their position of market dominance because they systematically solved all of these shortcomings, and in doing so gave the sailing community what it wanted (defined by where they spent their money) ... and in the process, all the traditional designs and manufacturers disappeared. Sailing has evolved into a family pass time where crew comfort and convenience is right at the top of the buyers list .... as with all evolution you get designs that are ghastly, but the general direction is always towards improvement.

I'd certainly sail on a "classic" at the drop of a hat, and I love seeing them in the various anchorages I visit .... but I won't be owning one any time soon because my AWB does the same thing, just with more comfort, space, and convenience - and in my opinion it looks fine too.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

+1 to that, Baggywrinkle. Modern ways of eliminating rigging chafe are good too. I sail on classics regularly, 8m class, old gaffers, but mostly the XOD class, dating back to 1911. They are just a dayboat, but they are slow, cramped, hideously wet, comparatively expensive to run, being traditionally constructed. Pretty, definitely. We sail them because the class attracts all the old pros. Our day is complete if we finish with a string of Olympic medallists behind us. It’s definitely nostalgia, these guys were my heroes in byegone days.

 

[doug748]

... but back to row away factor.

It's pure nostalgia, which in itself forms part of this omnipresent wish (usually from older generations) to return to some vague time in the past where things were somehow "better". This is a dangerous fallacy.....

Now this is a strange coincidence, I was just mulling this over the other day.
You bump into both ends of the logical fallacy spectrum on these pages:

"My new cummerbund suits me perfectly.... Therefore It's an obvious proof - that it is the best cummerbund ever produced"
Or
My old cummerbund suits me perfectly... Therefore it is an obvious proof. - that it's the best one ever made.

Basically we are trying to turn a personal subjective observation into an generalised objectve one. It won't wash for either set of optomists.

.

 

[johnalison]

+1 to that, Baggywrinkle. Modern ways of eliminating rigging chafe are good too.

The Germans call them Millipedes, so our friends told us, which I thought was charming.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Now this is a strange coincidence, I was just mulling this over the other day.
You bump into both ends of the logical fallacy spectrum on these pages:

"My new cummerbund suits me perfectly.... Therefore It's an obvious proof - that it is the best cummerbund ever produced"
Or
My old cummerbund suits me perfectly... Therefore it is an obvious proof. - that it's the best one ever made.

Basically we are trying to turn a personal subjective observation into an generalised objectve one. It won't wash for either set of optomists.

.

But modern boats are demonstrably better than classics in every way but for some people liking the way they look. Fair play to them for putting up with the drawbacks, my classic is like putting yourself in a washing machine on the heavy soil cycle. Except it’s colder. Modern boats are easier to sail, faster under all conditions, and apparently just as seaworthy. It’s a fallacy to think that anyone buys a classic yacht for any reason but aesthetics. I’m still delighted that people do though.

 

[doug748]

But modern boats are demonstrably better than classics in every way but for some people liking the way they look. Fair play to them for putting up with the drawbacks, my classic is like putting yourself in a washing machine on the heavy soil cycle. Except it’s colder. Modern boats are easier to sail, faster under all conditions, and apparently just as seaworthy. It’s a fallacy to think that anyone buys a classic yacht for any reason but aesthetics. I’m still delighted that people do though.

You are quite wrong, older boats have a number of strengths , at least equal to the weaknesses of the Dragonfly we often hear about.
Though I doubt you will ever see it.

.

 

[JRCO26]

A Bavaria is not to my taste, though they do what it says on the tin, but I think that directly criticising someone’s choice of boat is actually a little worse than criticising his choice of wife, and something I generally try to avoid.

Baggywrinkle said he prefers Bavarias to Nicholsons, Contessa's etc and I said I prefer D Trump Rallys on an endless loop to Bavarias. We were both just stating our preferences, not criticising each others boats...or wives.

 

[JRCO26]

Is that based on experience of owning and sailing one?

I will answer when you ask Baggywrinkle that same question if he has sailed Nicholsons, Contessa's and all the old 70's GRP tubs of that era. I couldn't care less if he has or hasn't but, you know, just evening up the score here when we have you, and guys like JohnAlison who conveniently forget that the first guy to have a crack at others boats was Baggywrinkle. I merely prefer Trump vids on a loop.

 

[Dellquay13]

I came back to this thread after nearly a week away. I wasn’t surprised at how it had descended into ‘my boats better than yours’ but I was a tiny bit disappointed that this hadn’t really become The One where the OP had actually bought a boat…

I’ll go back to my normal disaffection with the human race with it confirmed anew.

 

[JRCO26]

I came back to this thread after nearly a week away. I wasn’t surprised at how it had descended into ‘my boats better than yours’ but I was a tiny bit disappointed that this hadn’t really become The One where the OP had actually bought a boat…

I’ll go back to my normal disaffection with the human race with it confirmed anew.

Forums, be it Sailing or 'Best Colour for an Umbrella' forum, are the Pubs of the future - well now ,really. Agree, argue, dissect, applaude, denigrate, etc etc. The big missing ingredient if facial expression and tone of voice that can change the entire context of a discussion in a live setting compared to a forum like this. I long ago learnt not to be butthurt by forums, but rather have a bit of fun pointing out irony and contradictions and strawmanning - and of course, one is sometimes guilty of that themselves - I know I am because you know .... I am an imperfect Human (and I really would prefer watching Trump Rally Videos on a Loop than own or sail a Bavaria). It's all a bit of fun, so don't sweat it too much Dellquay. Go well mate, the world has a lot of problems, but sailing forums are well down the list of worry for me.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I will answer when you ask Baggywrinkle that same question if he has sailed Nicholsons, Contessa's and all the old 70's GRP tubs of that era. I couldn't care less if he has or hasn't but, you know, just evening up the score here when we have you, and guys like JohnAlison who conveniently forget that the first guy to have a crack at others boats was Baggywrinkle. I merely prefer Trump vids on a loop.

Oh god yes .... that's what all my dad's cruising friends had, and the dads of my friends at school - everything from a wooden folk-boat to a Moody 42 over the years, and one of my school friends had a gorgeous Rustler. I even joined in with the Moody bashing because at the time they were considered floating caravans... my dad still harps on about the demise of Angus Primrose as irrefutable proof that all Moodys are death traps even though they are now revered by old salts for their skeg-hung rudders and heavy build. It's a funny old world - with age I came to realise there was a tinge of envy in my dads bashing of Moodys ... probably 'cos we all loved it when we were invited aboard his friends spacious, luxurious yacht .... I wonder how the conversation will go in another 40-50 years time. People moaning about AI controlled carbon-fiber foiling rockets with interiors that would put the Ritz to shame, fitted with all the mod-cons going?

Both my brother and I started our boat searches in the same way, looking for the same thing - boats from the top end of what my parents generation lusted after. Both of us with families, and both of us with the same experiences from our childhood .... we had also both been chartering up until this point, on various mono and multi-hulls. I went first and ended up with a Bavaria, which my brother borrowed a few times for his summer hols. Then his turn came and he went lusting after a Nicholson ketch that had caught his eye. In the end he also bought a Bavaria.

I can't even begin to describe the disappointment of the viewings though, we both had the same experience .... boats listed as "excellent condition" were anything but .... the only thing that caused a slight rush of nostalgia was the smell. Excellent condition it turned out, was relative.

Both of us needed holiday ready, family boats, not projects, or man-caves with keels ... and that's how we both ended up with Bavarias, which we are both very happy with.

I'm still grateful for all those who sail old boats, they make a welcome change to the cookie-cutter charter boats that now crowd every harbour and anchorage, and the owners are always interesting to talk to.

With all I have said though, I'd rather swap my Bav for an old boat and keep sailing than listen to tRump .... Have you ever considered that you might be an old boat extremist?