Route check - Portishead to Cardiff

[vodzurk]

Hi guys,

Thank you all so much for the endless advice and tips over the past few months! Hopefully I'll soon be able to be a little quieter on here .

At some point over the next couple of months, I'm hoping that we'll make it over to Cardiff... Leaving Portishead at HW, and returning on the flood tide (possibly overnighting at Penarth).

So, for a quick sanity check... would this route make sense? I'd look to aim for going between the markers.

Or is this a bad idea for any reasons I don't yet know? (Industrial traffic? Stay-outta-the-deep? Too Close to Steep Holm? Etc.)

 

[steveej]

from the safe water mark (East West Grounds) I would be shaping a course more west and cut inside the sand banks. But it does get shallow here so you don't want the sea state to be too lumpy and crash you onto the sea bed if you fall off a wave or in the throughs. Closer in here may also be a lee shore which may make the sea more lumpy. In which case you could air on the side of caution and go the long way around (i.e. what you have drawn).

 

[steveej]

Other tips.....you may see some big ships so stay out of there way. You may also see some sailing boats so you should stay out of there way. How are your colregs? you should really have a basic understanding of the give way and stand on vessels. When you get to Cardiff it may be busy, go as far up the lock as possible to make space for other boats, but you may know this already. You could spend a night at Mermaid Quay or one of the yacht clubs. Do you have an auxiliary engine? what are you going to do if yours conks out? Are you happy your anchoring gear is up to the job of you lobbing it over the side in order to stop you drifting onto a sand bank when your engine has died, keeps you safe until you sort yourself out? Calling the lifeboat because of engine failure is to be frowned upon in my view. I take it you have a Chart Plotter? paper charts? binoculars to spot the marks (they are far apart). I.e. what would you do if you ended up with a power failure? Problem with boats, especially older ones is major systems can go down and you need a back up plan to deal with them. Navionics on your smart phone is a nice back up.

 

[Snoopy463]

From 8 head due west to North Cardiff buoy. Don't go too far down channel and have to punch the tide at the Rannie. Should be plenty of water for a powerboat leaving Portishead at high tide. Your crucial waypoint is Outer Wrack which is just about the smallest cardinal in the channel. You have a chartplotter so no probs. On the way back its easier, just reversevthe route. Good luck and enjoy.

 

[vodzurk]

from the safe water mark (East West Grounds) I would be shaping a course more west and cut inside the sand banks. But it does get shallow here so you don't want the sea state to be too lumpy and crash you onto the sea bed if you fall off a wave or in the throughs. Closer in here may also be a lee shore which may make the sea more lumpy. In which case you could air on the side of caution and go the long way around (i.e. what you have drawn).

Yeah, I was thinking about going of the sandbanks, but the south would appear the safer bet. The south also appears to keep a regular interval of markers to follow.

Other tips.....you may see some big ships so stay out of there way. You may also see some sailing boats so you should stay out of there way. How are your colregs? you should really have a basic understanding of the give way and stand on vessels. When you get to Cardiff it may be busy, go as far up the lock as possible to make space for other boats, but you may know this already. You could spend a night at Mermaid Quay or one of the yacht clubs. Do you have an auxiliary engine? what are you going to do if yours conks out? Are you happy your anchoring gear is up to the job of you lobbing it over the side in order to stop you drifting onto a sand bank when your engine has died, keeps you safe until you sort yourself out? Calling the lifeboat because of engine failure is to be frowned upon in my view. I take it you have a Chart Plotter? paper charts? binoculars to spot the marks (they are far apart). I.e. what would you do if you ended up with a power failure? Problem with boats, especially older ones is major systems can go down and you need a back up plan to deal with them. Navionics on your smart phone is a nice back up.

you may see some big ships so stay out of there way - definitely understood.
sailing boats so you should stay out of there way - understood.
How are your colregs - bit rusty, but can easily refresh on the couple of pages in PBL2 manual regarding the basics (drive on the right+overtake to the right, 1 honk = me going right, 2 left, 3 back, 5 WTF u doin'?). Can read and read and read... and by the time it's all learnt, I'll have forgotten because I'm not DOING it (one of my frustrations regarding perfectly valid advice... if it's all followed... and you have a day job... it could be years until you're aboard, and by then you'll have forgotten everyting). PBL2 book is a good summary and concise. Might print out the colregs though and leave them besides the throne (thus making it even more deeply understood than shampoo).
basic understanding of the give way and stand on vessels - understood.
go as far up the lock as possible to make space for other boats - understood.
You could spend a night at Mermaid Quay or one of the yacht clubs - Believe Portishead has a reciprocal arrangement with Penarth ... though Mermaid Quay might be nice for a few drinks.
auxiliary engine - on the list of things to buy over next few months. Main engine is serviced to death, and proven for many hours to be reliable (except for recent overheating at high throttle).
what are you going to do if yours conks out - Not the best solution... lifeboat. The engine has been fully serviced (6 months ago), inspected (6 months ago), surveyed (9 months ago), and proven itself reliable. An engineer (see my handyman thread) will likely be giving it a once over in the next few weeks too. I do hope to have an aux in place, but don't want the lack to prevent us using the boat in the interim.
your anchoring gear is up to the job - Yep, fully kitted out recently... ~7m chain, 50m rope, bruce anchor, all set up. Also have 2x safety lines ready so can go on bow if need be to deploy it. Knife too.
Chart Plotter - Yes, navionics. 2 tablets (one for backup).
Paper charts - Yes, though printed out (laser) and stuffed in a plastic protector.
binoculars - monocular.
power failure - If engine still going, revert to (backup) hand-held vhf (includes DSC/Distress/GPS), ready the airhorn.

 

[vodzurk]

One thing that does bother me with Aux engines... our boat is 6.5m / 21ft. It has a 150hp (35 year old) engine.

Given the rate of flow through the channel... if I get engine failure in the middle... I'm surely looking at dropping anchor and getting a tow? Wouldn't a 4hp aux be a real struggle what with the tides running at 10mph? I imagine coming in after dark (after a very long limp back) via aux is probably not a great idea either.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I'm new to the channel so take this with a pinch of salt and I'm sure other more experienced people can comfirm my thoughts are ok, but as an alternative...

Giving you're in a planing mobo and will hopefully pick a nice day with not a lot of wind I would cross the shipping lane outside Portishead, cross the mud bank (looks like there's a nice strip with about 3-4m or less above CD) this would get you out of the way of shipping and gives you the option of running into Newport if you get get halfway across and don't like it (I would think you could put the boat on the sailing clubs visitors pontoon on the river if you ask nicely till the tide turns, the river is quite sheltered). Then cross West keeping an eye out for ships and sailing boats out of Newport to the Yellow buoy and then Cardiff North and then Outer Wrach running along the drying line This also means you'll be in the lee of Penarth if the wind picks up from the west and out of any strong tidal races and if you do need to anchor you're not in 20m+ of water.

But you'll be crossing the flats on a falling tide (although at 10kn you should be across them in half an hour) so leaving at HW shouldn't lose much hight in that time.

Oh I would think I would want a minimum of 6hp aux, preferably closer to 10 myself to get you across a tidal stream coming into harbour.

Mermaid Quay is a good shout, lots to see and do, I really like it there. The marina is nice, sheltered and quiet but not a lot that side of town.

 

[Sneds]

Why not go in a straight line from way point 5?

Happy to chat if you see us on SeaKist at the weekend

Cheers

 

[steveej]

I would go a 6HP Yamaha Long shaft, about a grand

 

[vodzurk]

I would go a 6HP Yamaha Long shaft, about a grand

Editing, for questions...

- Would Southampton Boat Show be a good place to pick one up?
- New vs old?
- The Tohatsu 6hp's seem to have good reviews, and be £100-200 cheaper with 7 year warranty (link). Obviously best is best, but this will hopefully go unused. Should I stick to Yamaha?
- Is there much in the way of theft of outboards at Portishead and further afield? Or do I just throw it in the boot every time?
- How deep should the prop be? Just I can see a Mercury 8ML for £650.00 in bristol... if it's short shaft is it out of the picture?

I'll get the mount-to-water height measured this weekend.

 

[steveej]

possibly, but I would also trawl the internet for best pricing.
Definitely needs to be long shaft. short shaft is for a dinghy and yours will be on a retractable bracket. If there is any kid of seaway the short shaft will be constantly getting lifted from the water.
My 5 year old Yamaha always starts first time and has never cut out. My brand new 3.5HP tohatsu that I use on my dinghy has a tendancy to cut out when first starting unless you are vigilent for about 5 minutes monitoring the choke etc.
If you are worried about theft, take it off the bracket and store it down below.
Problem with second hand is if you pay a pro to service it and get the valve clearances checked because you don't know the history, you may as well by new.

 

[bitbaltic]

Your crucial waypoint is Outer Wrack

Wrach (witch).

 

[bitbaltic]

I'm new to the channel so take this with a pinch of salt and I'm sure other more experienced people can comfirm my thoughts are ok, but as an alternative...

Giving you're in a planing mobo and will hopefully pick a nice day with not a lot of wind I would cross the shipping lane outside Portishead, cross the mud bank (looks like there's a nice strip with about 3-4m or less above CD) this would get you out of the way of shipping and gives you the option of running into Newport if you get get halfway across and don't like it (I would think you could put the boat on the sailing clubs visitors pontoon on the river if you ask nicely till the tide turns, the river is quite sheltered). Then cross West keeping an eye out for ships and sailing boats out of Newport to the Yellow buoy and then Cardiff North and then Outer Wrach running along the drying line This also means you'll be in the lee of Penarth if the wind picks up from the west and out of any strong tidal races and if you do need to anchor you're not in 20m+ of water.
.

On a nice day in a planing mobo with a sound engine you can just about drive wherever you want in this area and your only problem is going to be fuel wasted punching tide. But if the weather deteriorates my experience has been that the sea gets uncomfortable on the edge of the middle grounds as well as that the tide runs strongly in the Newport deep. I would not suggest that route to a beginner in poorer weather. There also remains the possibility that one gets one's tide heights wrong and/or the true depth far inside the grounds in less than charted (how many of us go far in there?) with the risk of grounding.

If the OP has any concerns about his engine and needs to anchor in event of failure then by going over the drying grounds he will increase the risks if he has a problem, ie conked out, anchored and some time later is aground, neither of which an ILB will be able to do too much about....

 

[bitbaltic]

You could spend a night at Mermaid Quay or one of the yacht clubs - Believe Portishead has a reciprocal arrangement with Penarth ... though Mermaid Quay might be nice for a few drinks.

30 nights reciprocal berthing without charge. Just ring them and tell them you're a Portishead boat and you're coming over.

 

[bitbaltic]

Hi guys,

Thank you all so much for the endless advice and tips over the past few months! Hopefully I'll soon be able to be a little quieter on here .

At some point over the next couple of months, I'm hoping that we'll make it over to Cardiff... Leaving Portishead at HW, and returning on the flood tide (possibly overnighting at Penarth).

So, for a quick sanity check... would this route make sense? I'd look to aim for going between the markers.

Or is this a bad idea for any reasons I don't yet know? (Industrial traffic? Stay-outta-the-deep? Too Close to Steep Holm? Etc.)

View attachment 66029

When we started out we used to think it was sensible/safer to go the long way round via the big-boat markers and the main channel. You quickly realise that it is just as safe to "cut the corner" as people call it by going north of the Cardiff grounds and the associated drying patches to the north. The charted depths in there (away from the sandbar) are accurate and there is nothing to fear going in there. Once you are off the Orchard Ledges the seas are usually flatter than in the main channel if the weather is bad.

As I mentioned above I think the lumpier seas are usually around the edge of the Welsh Grounds particularly north of the E Mid Grounds (seperated from middle grounds by a narrow channel) around the confluence with the Newport Deep. Lumpy seas in poor weather, not the corryvreckan, but I would avoid that area on a first passage.

I agree with the folk who are suggesting heading to Cardiff from about the area of the Welsh Hook/Clevedon cardinals. When you arrive off Cardiff, you need to keep north of the Cardiff Grounds so put a waypoint somewhere north of the North Cardiff buoy which allows a clear bearing around the top of the sands. You can't lay this waypoint without crossing over the middle grounds from anywhere up-channel of the Welsh Hook cardinal, so follow the main channel to that point. If you start sailing west at Welsh Hook you will pass close by the E middle grounds, I've never had an issue going very close on either side of them above half tide, if you stay on the south side you will definitely be fine. To to save yourself perhaps a bit of anticiaption on a first passage you might choose to stay in the main channel until the Clevedon cardinal and turn west thereafter keeping well south of E mid grounds; you might choose that route on the way back to avoid a risk of being pushed north towards middle grounds by a flooding tide, but that shouldn't really worry a fast mobo so much.

From your waypoint near the N Cardiff buoy head directly for the Outer Wrach cardinal and, if getting low on tide, be sure to round it leaving it to your stbd side. It can get shallow immediately north of Outer Wrach and boats do sometimes get stuck trying to cut the corner on it (usually deeper keel boats of course).

Heading up the Wrach channel do not go shoreward of the red port hand cans and give the last of these (before the preferred channel marker, red and green can) a wide berth. A sort of spit of mud has built up at the junction of the small boat and main wrach channels at that last red can, unwary boats often get stuck on it so make your track halfway between it and the preferred channel marker. You will be able to drive the dot well enough on a chartplotter but there is a white pole on the barrage and when it goes into transit with the chimneys of the building immeditely behind a lot of people use that as the moment to turn into the small boat channel.

Here's an example of the sort of thing.

Honestly its easier than you think and you will just get bored and annoyed with yourself if you go the long way round.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

My suggestion was more so the op has a port (Newport) to run to if he gets half way across and decides he's not happy about (weather, engine, being in the middle of the channel a long way from land etc) rather then being forced to carry on or punch the tide but I agree a more direct route would be better if he's happy with how it's looking. Crossing the grounds would take 30 minutes at 5kn if it got lumpy obviously less if flat but I agree if something went wrong or his timings are out he could be high and dry for the day hence the warning to pick the day and check the tides/depth, plus have confidence in his engine.

I've always wary about drying ground but from what I gather asking at the club Newport boats usually cross that way to get to Portishead for HW but head down channel on the return (the route you suggest to Cardiff), sit out the tide and then back up on the flood to make sure there's enough water on the moorings. I've not made the trip yet but it's on the list, one reason asking for more experienced advice in my post.

I think the wisest thing for a would be to go across with another Portishead boat for the first time, that way you have someone that can help you straight away (if needs be), you can go more direct with the comfort of company and knowledge. If it's a nice day though, you'll wonder what all the fuss is about, you'll be there in no time.

 

[Snoopy463]

I hope we are not in danger of putting Vodzurk off. There are no great whirlpools out there and the last Kraken was polished off centuries ago. As long as he avoids the mega high tides, chooses a calm day with F3 or less winds, does it in daylight and leaves at HT Portishead it will be a doddle. Yellow Ballad and I (and many others), ponce around in these waters with 6 foot keels and seem able to avoid running aground. Go with the tide, keep an eye on the charts/chartplotter avoid the green bits, look at the depth readings and look over your shoulder from time to time as the car transporters are rather quick. Bon voyage!

 

[vodzurk]

I hope we are not in danger of putting Vodzurk off. There are no great whirlpools out there and the last Kraken was polished off centuries ago. As long as he avoids the mega high tides, chooses a calm day with F3 or less winds, does it in daylight and leaves at HT Portishead it will be a doddle. Yellow Ballad and I (and many others), ponce around in these waters with 6 foot keels and seem able to avoid running aground. Go with the tide, keep an eye on the charts/chartplotter avoid the green bits, look at the depth readings and look over your shoulder from time to time as the car transporters are rather quick. Bon voyage!

Nah, not gonna get put off, and appreciate the advice from everyone!

(not had chance to reply to all due to work swallowing too much of my time this week).

The killer with everything for me is the single engine and when I can get an aux backup. This boating thing seems to frequently throw up bills that can be £1000+ in any single month. We already use it in the channel, though sticking to the coast down to Clevedon so far... however... engine failure would still lead to the same result... anchor + a grovelling phone call to Portishead lifeboat station. The aux WILL happen, just, there's a lot of other stuff going on around it, all contending for limited funding. Aside from the aux, everything has been inspected, serviced, proven reliable, and has multiple layers of backups (1 plotter + 2x Navionics, 2 VHF/DSC radios + 3 mobile phones, etc). There's gonna be so much kit that the boat is barely gonna be able to move.

I understand that inevitably, the engine will fail at some point over 100 trips, as that's just life. But, at tops, we'll only be out 3 more times until the aux arrives. The missus has finally clicked as of our last 2 trips and bloody loves boating... FINALLY! I just need to keep on it before her attention wanes.

Plus, getting an aux right now... more things to learn! Am already trying to figure out the engine and numerous other things. I feel like every minute at home is spent learning. I need a few weeks until I'm ready to start on "how to jerry rig an auxiliary so it's not moving, and how to have it run off the main fuel tank, or is all that even the way it works, etc". Add into it the detriment to wife enjoying just a couple of trips, as opposed to working out our routine for coming in on an aux (helm driving, shouting back the "sloooow, cut engine!" commands as coming into the lock). Boating is very nearly the best thing in the world at the moment, and I don't wanna shatter that just yet (though I understand engine failure is the biggest risk).

Also, 50% of small boats that go out don't seem to have an aux. Doesn't validate us not having one, but given how much we've thrown at maintenance, we can't be the worst engine out there!

 

[graham]

If buying an outboard auxillary make sure you get a saildrive version with a high thrust propellor and long shaft.

An outboard designed for a lightweight dinghy is unsuitable even if the same horse power.

If you need to use it the secret is to not fight the tide.Use the outboard to get you out of the shipping channel then anchor if neccessary and wait for a favourable tide.

The rnli is not a marine version of the RAC and shouldnt be used as such.

 

[vodzurk]

Fine fine, fine.

Ordered 6hp Tohatsu, sailpro, long shaft, free first service, 7 year warranty, £1095 inc vat, free delivery tomorrow.

And I vowed never to use the credit card. Sigh.