bedouin
Well-Known Member
It doesn't - that is the point - others on this thread were saying Atalanta was give way which is simply wrong.
Roland Wilson Guilty!
- Thread starter cryan
- Start date
It doesn't - that is the point - others on this thread were saying Atalanta was give way which is simply wrong.
A1Sailor
...
When is the December edition of PBO out? We'll all then be able to argue (sorry - I mean discuss!) not only whether the court ruling was correct but also whether the journalist's presentation of it all is correct!
I wait with baited breath...
I wait with baited breath...
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Oh I know, I know. But I was responding to someone who seems to find significance (and possibly an international conspiracy of the Illuminati, the Freemasons and the North Hertfordshire Women's Institute) in the fact that the charges referred to "impeding".
lw395
Well-Known Member
+1
Although I suspect the guard launch, pilots and race organisers could have done more to prevent this happening.
I just have the feeling of not having the full story.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Everyone else managed to avoid him ... it was just the one "prat" that didn't ...
Sorry Flaming - I do think he was a prat - we've discussed how we thought it'd come about though, but ultimately I can say that this exact situation wouldn't have happened with me - the engine would've been started!
lw395
Well-Known Member
I expect a lot of those who did avoid the tanker were prats too.
I think he was unlucky as well.
I am pretty sure lots of people made bigger errors or judgement that season with much smaller consequences, both in terms of publicity and financial cost.
I'm not sure starting the engine would actually have helped.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
+1000
rotrax
Well-Known Member
You may be right.
But had the instruction from the Southampton Harbour launch been followed and the engine started they would have been in a far better position to avoid a collision.
In the event they kept the kite up and cut across the bows of a 120,000 ton tanker with a tug at the stern end.
For the posters who think the HK could have slowed down-think of the consequences of the stern line to the tug going slack and getting around the sterngear of the HK.
There is a clearly defined deepwater channel for large vessels. They have a moving exclusion Zone around them in certain areas. They have Harbour Launches, tugs and pilots.
They dont go to all this trouble to avoid collisions, going aground and compromising other marine traffic because they have an easy job.
For a yacht Skipper to imagine for one moment he was not out of order after failing to implement a direct instuction from the Southampton Harbour launch, enter the Exclusion Zone and end up wrapped around the HK's anchor appears to me-a simple soul-outrageous.
The court-the final arbiter so far- had the same view.
End of.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Like Flaming has said before, almost all of us agree the skipper of Atalanta made some wrong decisions.
If he had started his engine as a precautionary measure when he entered the precautionary area (Not the MPZ), he might well have escaped contact.
But I do take issue with your comment about the "direct instruction" from the Harbour launch. Do we know exactly what this instruction was? Did they say "turn to port right now" or an equally explicit instruction? Or did they just shout something along the lines of "Bu**er off fast" or "Get your engine on and get out of here pronto"?
Given the Harbour launch's knowledge of the delayed turn to starboard of the tanker, a helpful instruction would have been something like "Bear away to port right now and leave the tanker to starboard."
Anyone know what was said?
When we know that, we can judge whether his actions were "outrageous".
BelleSerene
Well-Known Member
Yes of course it would: the guy had limited control of his course with his kite up.
But there's wisdom in what you say: who among us can't say that 'there by the grace of God go I' - when we've been inattentive at the wheel while driving? When we've stepped into a road and only just seen an oncoming car? When we've thrown something carelessly or negligently discharged a champagne cork (OK, that's not so often) that could have wounded someone but happened not to? Our legal system penalises causing harm, not risking causing harm, because it's the actual harm that gets measured; there is thus a large dose of luck for all of us in whether we are caught in its net. For every convicted wrongdoer who feels unlucky to have been caught, many of us are lucky not to have been.
In life's game of chance, we can control the odds, but are not in absolute control of the outcome. You're right: we've all made errors of judgment while sailing, and the main reason we don't recall them is that unlike for the Atalanta on that day, their consequences turned out not to be so dire. I suspect in reality there's little room for complacency for most of us.
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rotrax
Well-Known Member
Please read what I said.
I said that if the yacht skipper imagined that he was not out of order after the events leading up to the collision-THAT seemed TO ME-outrageous.
Others must judge if his actions were outrageous, but I have not.
Perhaps if he were as perceptive as I like to think I am he would not have ended up defending a pretty hopeless-IMHO-case, and losing.
AFAIK the Atalanta was instructed to start their engine by the Harbour Launch- a report from an earlier post on another thread.
They failed to do so.
Allan
Well-Known Member
I believe it was said, maybe in a previous thread that the launch said something like, "start your engine and turn north". I also believe the crew of the launch thought someone in the cockpit of the yacht acknowledged the instruction. The launch then headed off toward the stricken motorboat.
Allan
Allan
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
Today in a completely unrelated mater. I have been reminded about a couple of simple facts of life which have been pointed out to me before. Which I sometimes tend to forget.
Don’t jump to conclusions you will almost certainly be proved wrong.
Don’t send the guy who knows already what happened he will just try to prove he is right.
You may think you know what happened. If you keep an open mind you may find it was completely different to what you thought.
It was almost certainly much more complicated than it first appears.
He was found guilty. He was. The Judge said so.
He hit a rather large tanker. simple fact.
He might be a Pratt. I have not seen any evidence to contradict this. (Though I have a friend called Pratt who might object to this description).
The situation was almost certainly much more complicated than any of us have enough information to determine.
Don’t jump to conclusions you will almost certainly be proved wrong.
Don’t send the guy who knows already what happened he will just try to prove he is right.
You may think you know what happened. If you keep an open mind you may find it was completely different to what you thought.
It was almost certainly much more complicated than it first appears.
He was found guilty. He was. The Judge said so.
He hit a rather large tanker. simple fact.
He might be a Pratt. I have not seen any evidence to contradict this. (Though I have a friend called Pratt who might object to this description).
The situation was almost certainly much more complicated than any of us have enough information to determine.
fireball
Well-Known Member
He isn't a Pratt - he's a Wilson ... he is (IMHO) a prat ...
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Sorry to flog away at this horse but I think you (or the thread) are 100% wrong. After much hunting I have found one relevant transcript reported in the press (my emphasis in bold):
"Simon Lusty, marine officer on the pilot boat Spitfire, which was assisting the Hanne Knutsen, said: "I told the skipper at the helm that he needed to start his engines and clear the area, there's a tanker coming down.
It hadn't occurred to me that it would have carried on that track, having spoken to it.""
Seems to support my suggestion that more specific instructions from the patrol boat would have been more helpful.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Isn't there somewhere else in the transcript where he admits that he didn't know who he spoke to - and wasn't even sure if he had got an acknowledgment!
Seems to me that a lot of mistakes were made all round - an MAIB report would be very interesting but I doubt if the incident is serious enough for them to bother.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Really?! Start your engine(s) and clear the area seems sufficient to me. If the Atalanta had engine problems then he could've said so then. IMHO the Pilot boat is not always in the best position to prescribe how a boat should clear the area - sometimes it's obvious, but othertimes it may be heavily dependant on the capability of the vessel in question.
John.edwards
Well-Known Member
without trawling back through all the posts in 3 threads, I seem to recall Bedouin saying early on that they couldn't see a day shape on HK
a couple of posts later and it became fact that HK weas not displaying a day shape.
Where does it confirm, ANYWHERE here that there was no day shape displayed on HK? A piddly video that is pixelated when enlarged is no evidence.
And how on earth does a yacht, required to remain out of the moving exclusion zone of a huge tanker suddenly become the stand on vessel when a risk of collision becomes apparent? flip flopping responsibilities is not part of the COLREGs
Resolution
Well-Known Member
No question about the instruction to start engines (except the plural!). Atalanta should have had their engine on some minutes earlier.
But as regards the "which way to turn " question, this is precisely when the Spitfire should have been able to give a better instruction. They had seen the broken down powerboat. They knew the tanker was having to take a different course to the one indicated by her sound signal, and they could see that the Atalanta was consequently heading into the MPZ. IMHO if they had said turn East not South then there would not have been a collision.
I do agree that the patrol boats are not necessarily in a position to know how manoeverable the yacht / motor boat is, this must remain a skipper's responsibility.
fireball
Well-Known Member
I think that the Atalanta was already IN the MPZ ...
