Roland Wilson Guilty!

[rotrax]

Am i supposed to be afraid? I couldn't give a monkey's whether he's a Judge, the Queen of England or President of the world.

Your opinions about this case are to me a matter of supreme indifference. You are making assumptions which you can have no way of knowing are true.

I for one would not want YOU judging MY actions.

I, according to your rules, am an old burke.( I would have spelt it Berk-rhyming slang for Berkley Hunt-fill the rest in yourself.........)

Rather that than a no-nothing who jumps to delusions.

IMHO, of course.

 

[redkat]

Your opinions about this case are to me a matter of supreme indifference. You are making assumptions which you can have no way of knowing are true.

I for one would not want YOU judging MY actions.

I, according to your rules, am an old burke.( I would have spelt it Berk-rhyming slang for Berkley Hunt-fill the rest in yourself.........)

I spelled it Burkes as it refers to one of the Burkes peerage eg a district judge, if you referred anything else from that then that is your problem not mine. I do not understand your southern rhyming slang. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just choose not to listen to yours. The day i give up my right to free speech as long as it is not defamatory is the day i lose all faith in this tiny island of ours. I still have a modicom of hope left but its deteriorating rapidly at the moment. Your comment that I am a no nothing in itselfs mean that its OK for you to criticize but not for others. I suggest your advancing years have not promoted wiseness.

IMHO of course

 

[rotrax]

Your opinions about this case are to me a matter of supreme indifference. You are making assumptions which you can have no way of knowing are true.

I for one would not want YOU judging MY actions.

I, according to your rules, am an old burke.( I would have spelt it Berk-rhyming slang for Berkley Hunt-fill the rest in yourself.........)

I spelled it Burkes as it refers to one of the Burkes peerage eg a district judge, if you referred anything else from that then that is your problem not mine. I do not understand your southern rhyming slang. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just choose not to listen to yours. The day i give up my right to free speech as long as it is not defamatory is the day i lose all faith in this tiny island of ours. I still have a modicom of hope left but its deteriorating rapidly at the moment. Your comment that I am a no nothing in itselfs mean that its OK for you to criticize but not for others. I suggest your advancing years have not promoted wiseness.

IMHO of course

I never called you a no-nothing. I suggested it-but if the cap fits you can bloody well wear it!

You can dish it out but you dont like it back.

Smacks of bullying.

 

[l'escargot]

...Do you really think a rate of turn which would have required an hour and twelve minutes to complete a full circle could reasonably baffle the competent skipper another vessel?...

You are really way out on your calculations of rate of turn in the area of concern - ships turn through almost 180 degrees in 10 to 15 minutes. In that time a yacht will barely travel the width of the area of concern.

 

[redkat]

I never called you a no-nothing. I suggested it-but if the cap fits you can bloody well wear it!

You can dish it out but you dont like it back.

Smacks of bullying.

Bullying? - Its exactly the opposite of what I stand for which is why i don't allow myself to be bullied by having to agree with peoples opinions simply because of their social standing (eg judges) or worse their age.
I think you need to curb your language mr rotrax or is that your southern vernacular? You wouldn't catch us in Yorkshire swearing like that

 

[savageseadog]

The court will have examined the costs claimed, there is an accepted scale of fees and charges.

No. The court will not routinely examine costs unless the person paying them asks for them to be assessed, which, guess what? costs money. There are not accepted scales of fees and charges except for minor court fees. Costs are will normally be overstated, often many thousands more than they should be, it's up the the person with the order to pay them to challenge them. It's not fraud but just the way the legal system works (bent in other words).

 

[JumbleDuck]

If you are somewhere around directly ahead of the ship, a ten degree change will be very noticeable. You know it's going to turn a lot more. Why would you expect it to stop turning?
Normally ships seem to take care to be completely predictable.

The claim is that they were baffled by the end of a turn rate of 10 degrees (0.175 radians) in two minutes, which is 1/12 of a degree per second or 1/688 radians per second . Assuming that the HK was doing 10kt, which is 5m/s, that gives a radius of turn of 5 x 688 = 3440m. The lateral offset caused by the claimed turn would therefore be 3440 x (1 - cos 0.175) = 52m, and the lag behind her expected position 3440 x (0.175 - sin 0.175) = 4.65m.

The Hanne Knutsen's beam is 42.5m, so another vessel directly ahead (which the Atalanta wasn't until she sailed there immediate before the collision) would have seen the HK move just over one ship's breadth to the side over two minutes with no significant change to the forward component of her speed. I'm not sure that I'd expect that to be "very noticeable".

And, given that the turn was barely perceptible, the end of the turn would have been barely perceptible as well. In any case for the turn or its absence to have mattered, the Atalanta would have had to plan to pass within 10 - 50m of the Hanne Knutsen. Would that have been sensible?

It seems far more likely to me that the Atalanta expect the Hanne Knutsen to make a sharp turn and failed to realise until too late that it was simply impossible for her to make a sharp enough turn to avoid them. No fanciful theories about turns started or aborted needed.

 

[l'escargot]

No. The court will not routinely examine costs unless the person paying them asks for them to be assessed, which, guess what? costs money. There are not accepted scales of fees and charges except for minor court fees. Costs are will normally be overstated, often many thousands more than they should be, it's up the the person with the order to pay them to challenge them. It's not fraud but just the way the legal system works (bent in other words).

Are you going to tell them they've got it wrong then: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/costs/#a05 ?

 

[JumbleDuck]

You are really way out on your calculations of rate of turn in the area of concern - ships turn through almost 180 degrees in 10 to 15 minutes. In that time a yacht will barely travel the width of the area of concern.

I am accepting Bedouin's claim about the rate of turn: he wrote "she had put the helm over 2 minutes before the collision and had turned through more than 10 degrees before she aborted the turn". That seems reasonably borne out by the track on the MCA video, which shows no more than a very gentle turn to starboard.

Of course the Hanne Knutsen can turn faster, does turn faster and did, later, turn faster, but I am happy to agree that she was not turning fast at the moment of the collision or for some time before that.

 

[A1Sailor]

Am i supposed to be afraid? I couldn't give a monkey's whether he's a Judge, the Queen of England or President of the world.

I couldn't care less whether you are afraid, to be honest! I remain amused, though.

 

[Plomong]

You are about 1000 yds in front of a ship that has indicated a turn to both port and starboard - you have less than 30 seconds to decide what she is really doing and decide what action to take. So what would you have done and when?

Not be in that situation in the first place.

Atalanta should have turned south much earlier, if continuing east was not an option. The dealy in turning south was the origin of the incident.

Under ColRegs we are encouraged to take early action . . . . they didn't, or at least not early enough.

When in a similar situation here locally I always adjust course to be at all times south of the most southerly line the tanker would reach. (compass points given for Solent case, not local references).

Plomong

 

[l'escargot]

..Of course the Hanne Knutsen can turn faster, does turn faster and did, later, turn faster, but I am happy to agree that she was not turning fast at the moment of the collision or for some time before that.

Which would suggest she could have done more to avoid the collision...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Which would suggest she could have done more to avoid the collision...

Until they start employing telepathic pilots, probably not.

 

[l'escargot]

Until they start employing telepathic pilots, probably not.

But yacht skippers are expected to be telepathic?

 

[JumbleDuck]

But yacht skippers are expected to be telepathic?

No, they are expected to follow the rules. Or be fined three grand.

 

[rotrax]

Well said!

 

[l'escargot]

No, they are expected to follow the rules. Or be fined three grand.

Ah, right so the lack of telepathic powers is ok for pilots but no defence for yacht skippers - doesn't seem very fair to me. If as you seem to suggest, the pilot could have done more to avoid the collision but didn't , perhaps he deserves to be fined for not following the rules...

 

[lw395]

The claim is that they were baffled by the end of a turn rate of 10 degrees (0.175 radians) in two minutes, which is 1/12 of a degree per second .....

All this per second stuff is just waffle, if you look at a ship anywhere near head on, a 10 degree change of aspect is very noticeable.
You would perhaps not be able to say whether it had turned 5, 10 or 15 degrees with any exact certainty, but you would see that it had commenced its turn.
And of course we all tend to see what we expect to see, so we'd see the tanker doing the normal thing until it became obvious it was deviating from that.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Ah, right so the lack of telepathic powers is ok for pilots but no defence for yacht skippers - doesn't seem very fair to me. If as you seem to suggest, the pilot could have done more to avoid the collision but didn't , perhaps he deserves to be fined for not following the rules...

You misunderstand me. Yes, the Hanne Knutsen could have done something to avoid the collision. She could have slowed down, or turned earlier, or gone to Rotterdam instead of Fawley for that matter. All these things were physically possible, but all of them would have required her crew to know much earlier than they did that the Atalanta was going to prat about as she did. And that would have required reading the minds of her crew.

The Atalanta, on the other hand, was a lightweight, highly manoeuvrable racing yacht faced with a bright red oil tanker a quarter of a kilometer long making no significant course changes.

 

[rotrax]

Bullying? - Its exactly the opposite of what I stand for which is why i don't allow myself to be bullied by having to agree with peoples opinions simply because of their social standing (eg judges) or worse their age.
I think you need to curb your language mr rotrax or is that your southern vernacular? You wouldn't catch us in Yorkshire swearing like that

You are absolutely right-you do not have to share anyones opinion-you have your own.
But, in the world I inhabit-and have inhabited for more than twice the time you have-I have worked out that when your opinion differs from anothers, you give them the same courtesy and respect that YOU expect.
I would be very surprised if you had met the Judge in the case, but you despise him for his station in life and age.
So, without knowing the man in any way you state on a public forum that he is what you say he is.
I have never met him either, but unlike you, I shall reserve my judgement of him untill I have sufficient knowledge of him to make a judgement.This also goes for older persons too-you dont think much of them either.

From another thread it appears you are a self made man.
Well done.

I hope it is not patronising but please reflect on a little truism I try to use-and have used for many years-in my everyday life:-

"True Knowledge is the Product of Direct Experience"-From Mao's little red book.

By the way, I spent my life in the Motor and Motorcycle Trade and Industry-bad language was the norm.
The man with the foulest mouth I ever heard was a Yorkshireman-Wilf Green, a Motorcycle Dealer in Sheffield.