Roland Wilson Guilty!

[JumbleDuck]

The actions/course changes were based on a prediction that the tanker would follow the course most ships take when entering Southampton Water and the course it would have taken without the broken down motorboat. Then a failure to see that things were in fact happening differently and not reacting accordingly. A misjudgement or error of judgement and not an arrogant or reckless act.

We agree completely, I think, on almost everything. I might quibble with the phrase "... not [a] reckless act".

 

[JumbleDuck]

You are missing the point - they should have turned to starboard as that was the course they were following. They even signalled they were turning to starboard and started the turn - then then put the helm to port to avoid a MOBO and as a result of that unexpected manoeuvre there was a collision..

It's quite clear from the tracks that (a) the Hanne Knutsen barely turned at all, to either side, before the collision and (b) the Atalanta turned across the HK's bows several minutes before the collision and failed to take effective action when things didn't develop as they expected.

 

[bedouin]

It's quite clear from the tracks that (a) the Hanne Knutsen barely turned at all, to either side, before the collision and (b) the Atalanta turned across the HK's bows several minutes before the collision and failed to take effective action when things didn't develop as they expected.

Nonsense - she had put the helm over 2 minutes before the collision and had turned through more than 10 degrees before she aborted the turn - had she continued with the turn Atalanta would have been well clear. She had turned through more than 10 degrees anyway. Given that the tanker was about to turn through about 120 degrees Atalanta was bound to cross their bows - the action Atalanta took should have kept well clear, it was the unpredictable actions of HK that was the immediate cause of the collision.

 

[A1Sailor]

Unfortunately for Lt Wilson the court decided otherwise. Perhaps you should have defended him.

 

[fireball]

Any which way you look at it ... There is an exclusion zone of 1km in front of the tanker and hundred to each side. The Atalanta entered that area and from the moment they were in danger of entering it they should've been looking to get clear. They took minimal course changes until the last 30 seconds or so ... If they'd taken appropriate action at the earliest opportunity then they would've been completely clear no matter what the hk did.. Bt they didn't and now RW has to pay the price for that.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Nonsense - she had put the helm over 2 minutes before the collision and had turned through more than 10 degrees before she aborted the turn - had she continued with the turn Atalanta would have been well clear.

Ten whole degrees in just two minutes? Goodness, what a slalom.

Given that the tanker was about to turn through about 120 degrees Atalanta was bound to cross their bows - the action Atalanta took should have kept well clear, it was the unpredictable actions of HK that was the immediate cause of the collision.

Absolutely. With ships hurling themselves into breakneck turns which would see 120 degrees completed in a mere twenty four minutes, what chance does a lightweight, highly manoeuvrable racing yacht have?

 

[bedouin]

Unfortunately for Lt Wilson the court decided otherwise. Perhaps you should have defended him.

Yes the court having heard all the evidence found him guilty - all I am trying to point out is that there were extenuating circumstances and that a significant proportion of the fault lies with the actions of HK.

I think Atalanta's original action was fine, but their fault was in not reassessing the situation when HK didn't do what she indicated.

What is depressing is all these people who seem to be sure it was all Atalanta's fault without bothering to think about it.

I have a lot of sympathy for the skipper - he made what appeared to be a reasonable adjustment in course that would have kept him well clear. It was the HK stopping her turn to starboard - and in one report sounding a turn to Port.

You are about 1000 yds in front of a ship that has indicated a turn to both port and starboard - you have less than 30 seconds to decide what she is really doing and decide what action to take. So what would you have done and when?

 

[maxi77]

Yes the court having heard all the evidence found him guilty - all I am trying to point out is that there were extenuating circumstances and that a significant proportion of the fault lies with the actions of HK.

I think Atalanta's original action was fine, but their fault was in not reassessing the situation when HK didn't do what she indicated.

What is depressing is all these people who seem to be sure it was all Atalanta's fault without bothering to think about it.

I have a lot of sympathy for the skipper - he made what appeared to be a reasonable adjustment in course that would have kept him well clear. It was the HK stopping her turn to starboard - and in one report sounding a turn to Port.

You are about 1000 yds in front of a ship that has indicated a turn to both port and starboard - you have less than 30 seconds to decide what she is really doing and decide what action to take. So what would you have done and when?

Yet the court which as you say did hear all the evidence did find him guilty, and the judge who also heard all the evidence decided that he should pay prosecution costs, that suggests that they felt firstly there was no doubt he was guilty, and that there were few if any extenuating circumstances, or are you saying that the court having heard all the evidence got it wrong

 

[bedouin]

Yet the court which as you say did hear all the evidence did find him guilty, and the judge who also heard all the evidence decided that he should pay prosecution costs, that suggests that they felt firstly there was no doubt he was guilty, and that there were few if any extenuating circumstances, or are you saying that the court having heard all the evidence got it wrong

Since we haven't heard all the evidence it would be silly to put our judgment in their place.

I think the court found him guilty because they believed he took his eye off the tanker during the critical time having assumed it would continue to turn. Even though I think that was a reasonable assumption, not checking was a serious mistake

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think the court found him guilty because they believed he took his eye off the tanker during the critical time having assumed it would continue to turn.

It. Hadn't. Started. To. Turn.

Well, not to any significant extent. He may have assumed that it was going to turn, but it didn't, and three thousand quid plus costs says the judge thinks the Atalanta's skipper could have worked that out.

 

[redkat]

Yet the court which as you say did hear all the evidence did find him guilty, and the judge who also heard all the evidence decided that he should pay prosecution costs, that suggests that they felt firstly there was no doubt he was guilty, and that there were few if any extenuating circumstances, or are you saying that the court having heard all the evidence got it wrong

.....yes of course because old clueless judges out of touch with the real world, regularly get things right don't they I applaud your trust in the old burkes

 

[l'escargot]

The other factor that has been missed is that if you had asked anyone familiar with the Solent a few weeks ago whether the large ship follows the route of the escort boat, I would expect everyone would have said yes (and probably still will). I have never seen it not follow it (obviously it doesn't if it deviates off to warn boats but the escort boat does return to it's position relevant to the large ship) and it has always been regarded as an indication of the course of the large vessel when deciding what course to alter to to avoid the MPZ. I have also never seen a small boat choose to pass between the escort boat and the large vessel which is what has been suggested as the correct course of action here and if one did I would expect the escort boat to return and have words with them - I seem to recall that somewhere I have seen it said that the escort boat leads the vessel at about 1000 metres to demonstrate the start of MPZ although this may not have been in any official document. It looks as if in this case the escort boat also took his eye off the tanker and wasn't predicting it's course very well either.

 

[Tranona]

Are you sure the judge in question is not already a forumite? Some of the self-confessed Bavaria owners on here show sufficiently reactionary views to make one wonder and there has been a suspicious lack of participation by at least one of the usually outspoken ones.

Suspect he was chosen to hear the case because he is a judge, not because he owns a particular boat. In the same vein ownership of a particular boat does not necessarily qualify one to be able to contribute anything meaningful on this subject. Therefore commonsense suggests not saying anything.

 

[maxi77]

.....yes of course because old clueless judges out of touch with the real world, regularly get things right don't they I applaud your trust in the old burkes

I suspect that the judge in this case was not that old, and perhaps was not so much of a burk as the accused. I fear your prejudice is showing just little

 

[bedouin]

It. Hadn't. Started. To. Turn.

Well, not to any significant extent. He may have assumed that it was going to turn, but it didn't, and three thousand quid plus costs says the judge thinks the Atalanta's skipper could have worked that out.

Why don't you watch the video - or read the reports?

Seems like wasting everyone's time to keep posting nonsense like this when the evidence is there if you can be bothered to watch

 

[A1Sailor]

.....yes of course because old clueless judges out of touch with the real world, regularly get things right don't they I applaud your trust in the old burkes

I find it amusing you have seen fit to post that on a public forum where the judge can read it.

 

[redkat]

I suspect that the judge in this case was not that old, and perhaps was not so much of a burk as the accused. I fear your prejudice is showing just little

District Judge Anthony Callaway is 59. That makes him old for us young pups in our 30's and probably out of touch as he sails a Bavaria

 

[redkat]

I find it amusing you have seen fit to post that on a public forum where the judge can read it.

Am i supposed to be afraid? I couldn't give a monkey's whether he's a Judge, the Queen of England or President of the world.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why don't you watch the video - or read the reports?

Seems like wasting everyone's time to keep posting nonsense like this when the evidence is there if you can be bothered to watch

I have both read the reports and watched the video. The idea that the Hanne Knutsen started a tight turn and then mislead the crew of the Atalanta by pulling out of it is frankly ludicrous. You yourself said that "she had put the helm over 2 minutes before the collision and had turned through more than 10 degrees before she aborted the turn". Do you really think a rate of turn which would have required an hour and twelve minutes to complete a full circle could reasonably baffle the competent skipper another vessel?

Here's a screenshot of the MCA video at the point of collision. Care to point out the confusingly abrupt end of a sharp turn by the Hanne Knutsen? Note, by the way, that she wasn't actually moving in a series of zig-zags. Those are artefacts introduced by the sampling frequency of her position.

 

[lw395]

I have both read the reports and watched the video. The idea that the Hanne Knutsen started a tight turn and then mislead the crew of the Atalanta by pulling out of it is frankly ludicrous. You yourself said that "she had put the helm over 2 minutes before the collision and had turned through more than 10 degrees before she aborted the turn". Do you really think a rate of turn which would have required an hour and twelve minutes to complete a full circle could reasonably baffle the competent skipper another vessel?

....

If you are somewhere around directly ahead of the ship, a ten degree change will be very noticeable. You know it's going to turn a lot more. Why would you expect it to stop turning?
Normally ships seem to take care to be completely predictable.