Rocna Anchors acquired by Canada Metal Pacific

[Chris_Robb]

In the light of evidence that my anchor is not up to spec, I intend to approach the chandler and ask for a replacement anchor, but I have not yet decided which of three options to go for. (1) Throw more money at it, and get a 20kg Spade (probably a stronger anchor but with the same fluke surface area as the 15kg Rocna); (2) a 20kg Manson Supreme for about the same money (and a bit shorter than the equivalent Rocna, so will fit in my anchor locker and will probably give my everyday bower more holding power in difficult conditions); (3) a 15kg Rocna made in Q620 steel (for the considerations that made me choose the Rocna in the first place, rather too long-winded for this post).

For your last option, it appears that you still trust Rocna/CMP - you must be bonkers! They stuffed you and are clearly continuing the same process. Go with a manufacturer with a proven record.

I think both the Spade and Manson are the equal of any Rocna. Do consider that these advanced designs are absolutely critical in copying all the designed angles etc. Grant Kings email clearly show that Rocna not only had an issue with steel quality but they also had fabrication accuracy issues - which would have affected performance.

 

[macd]

Quite so Snooks & Fishy.

As you may have noticed, there's another thread running on the PBO forum, "Replacing Rocna", on which I suggested this:

"Regardless of the steel it's made from, and regardless of its age, if the OP's 10kg was sold as being certified by RINA, that was a misrepresentation. The RINA certification is merely a type-approval which specifically does not cover Rocna anchors with cast components (like the OP'S).

Equally the Arthurs Chandlery's claim [they sold the hook in question) that "(Marine Factors) [the UK Rocna importer] have assured us 100% that there is no issue at all with any of these anchors" is neither here nor there under sale of goods legislation (quite apart from flying in the face of Grant King's view of things). It's not about somebody's idea of "issues" (least of all the vendor's) but about whether, amongst other things, the goods were "as advertised". They weren't."

The bottom line must be that no vendor can decline to take back any Rocna anchor made in China, whether it was made of Bis80 (none?), 420, 620, titanium or case-hardened Gruyere cheese. (This is not intended as a slur on Chinese manufacturing: so far as I can make out they seem just to have done what they were told by Holdfast.)

 

[idpnd]

For your last option, it appears that you still trust Rocna/CMP - you must be bonkers!

I seem to recall seeing pointers that the designer (as in smith and heir) were directly colluding in some of the certification scam or the production quality scam?

Wouldn't go there no matter what they call themselves nowadays..

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Here's my attempt to add some tangible evidence to this debate.

Um, does this get me any further than I was before I undertook the test? In particular, does this constitute evidence that I do not have a Q620 shank?

I'm not sure. You are trying to imitate a Brinel hardness testing machine without a calibrated blow, a standardised impact tool and a consistent support for the test piece. The idea of using a bolt as a standard is a good one and in your position I would repeat the test for the Rocna shank and for an 8.8 bolt making sure that both were supported in the same way. In both cases you ideally need to remove the surface coating ie the zinc, so that part of your punch mark isnt into soft zinc and part into steel. If you then did one test on the rocna, two on the bolt and a final one the rocna you could be reasonably sure of giving a similar blow weight.

Do you still have the ally works on anglesey? If so their test house will have a brinel machine and asked nicely I'm sure they will do you a quick test foc - its a simply job. The advantage of this is that you would then have an unarguable result to complain with

 

[maxi77]

I'm not sure. You are trying to imitate a Brinel hardness testing machine without a calibrated blow, a standardised impact tool and a consistent support for the test piece. The idea of using a bolt as a standard is a good one and in your position I would repeat the test for the Rocna shank and for an 8.8 bolt making sure that both were supported in the same way. In both cases you ideally need to remove the surface coating ie the zinc, so that part of your punch mark isnt into soft zinc and part into steel. If you then did one test on the rocna, two on the bolt and a final one the rocna you could be reasonably sure of giving a similar blow weight.

Do you still have the ally works on anglesey? If so their test house will have a brinel machine and asked nicely I'm sure they will do you a quick test foc - its a simply job. The advantage of this is that you would then have an unarguable result to complain with

It may even be worth paying for a certificate, you can charge the chandler for the cost along with your refund.

 

[evm1024]

In my limited experience smacking a 420 shank with a hammer/ center punch leaves a pit. Clear and distinct. 620 shanks leave a surface ridge at the edges of the punch and bis 80 only messes with the galvanizing.

No need to be precise. the bis 80 shanks do not have a cast name and 420 pits much more than 620. Nad of course my mouse punch goes right through the hardened cheese shanks after a bit of scraping.

Regards

 

[Talulah]

Equally the Arthurs Chandlery's claim [they sold the hook in question) that "(Marine Factors) [the UK Rocna importer] have assured us 100% that there is no issue at all with any of these anchors" is neither here nor there under sale of goods legislation (quite apart from flying in the face of Grant King's view of things). It's not about somebody's idea of "issues" (least of all the vendor's) but about whether, amongst other things, the goods were "as advertised". They weren't."

The response from West Marine about returns/exchanges/refunds etc was brilliant.
I just don't know how the small chandleries are going to cope with giving refunds.
It must be a nightmare for them. In short they'll wait to have refund approval from their supplier even though that is not part of the customers concern.
If they drag their heels local customers will remember and stop buying from them. Equally they may be so close to the wire they don't have the funds to pay out.

Being a frequent customer of Arthurs I find them very helpful. However, I bet getting a refund will be like drawing blood and I hope you keep us posted on how you get on.

 

[FishyInverness]

Danny Jo,

I think Tina is Steve Bambury's live in partner (Grant might confirm this - but I think he mentioned it weeks ago, do not recall when) and previously worked for Holdfast. I have no idea what sort of corporate identity CMP has set up for 'the business' in NZ now but it might consist of Steve Bambury and Tina. You can decide on the veracity of information given.

Tina would appear to no longer be involved with Rocna, as per this comment directly lifted from the Rocna facebook page:

"Rocna Anchors ‎Chris Rawson : Tina has been part of the transition phase from the previous Rocna licensees to Canada Metal, and is no longer working with Rocna. There has been a handover of her outstanding enquiries, but if you have still not received a response please forward your e-mail(s) to Mark Pocock in Vancouver mark@rocna.com - apologies for the inconvenience."

Wonder if anyone else is on the transition bus out of Rocna town....?

 

[macd]

I hope you keep us posted on how you get on.

Sorry, the Rocna isn't mine. I was originally writing in response to this thread:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299741

Of course one sympathises with the individual retail chandlers left with the Holdfast baby. Piplers, to name but one, seem to have behaved well judging by posts from Rocna returners (no relationship to Piplers etc etc). But even they seem to have been fed the same nonsense by the importer about the number of 420 hooks received in the UK, if Grant King's and Neeves' figures are to be even remotely believed. But then they would: their first line of information must be the importer/manufacturer rather than a disgruntled customer saying "I saw this thread on..." Trouble is, that depends rather heavily on the integrity of those sources.

CMP didn't create this mess. But they bought into it for non-altruistic reasons. All of which makes their continued silence (or ignorance) harder to condone.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

FWIW I've just been outside and given my Manson a belt with a hammer and a punch. Done the same to an 8.8 bolt. Neither marked but is that because the steel is hard or because the punch is softer than the steel?

 

[evm1024]

Tina would appear to no longer be involved with Rocna, as per this comment directly lifted from the Rocna facebook page:

"Rocna Anchors ‎Chris Rawson : Tina has been part of the transition phase from the previous Rocna licensees to Canada Metal, and is no longer working with Rocna. There has been a handover of her outstanding enquiries, but if you have still not received a response please forward your e-mail(s) to Mark Pocock in Vancouver mark@rocna.com - apologies for the inconvenience."

Wonder if anyone else is on the transition bus out of Rocna town....?

For what it is worth: Mark is/was the head of Suncoast marine in BC that was the North Americam importer of Rocna (and made the Canadian version before that).

By all reports he is a good guy. In my conversations with him (Both voice and email) I found him to be OK.

It did appear that he was dumped on by Rocna/Holdfast twice. The first was when Canadian Rocna production was shutdown and the second was having to deal with the returns of the China sourced Rocna (and having to lie about the quality of the shank steel).

Regards

 

[vyv_cox]

My copy of Rollason's Metallurgy for Engineers suggests that punches, twist drills, reamers, etc are tempered at about 260C, brownish-purple temper colour. In a tool steel this will produce a hardness of 350 - 450 Brinell. Result is a tough steel that has less than the maximum hardness that could be achieved. The hardness of a steel with tensile strength 800 MPa is around 235 - 240 Brinell.

 

[youen]

On last October and still in November when I emailed to support@rona the person who reply was Tina Kittelty
And now guess who reply to my last email at the beginning of January:S Bambury himself!!!

 

[Twister_Ken]

My copy of Rollason's Metallurgy for Engineers suggests that punches, twist drills, reamers, etc are tempered at about 260C, brownish-purple temper colour. In a tool steel this will produce a hardness of 350 - 450 Brinell. Result is a tough steel that has less than the maximum hardness that could be achieved. The hardness of a steel with tensile strength 800 MPa is around 235 - 240 Brinell.

Dunno whether B&Q's buyer is familiar with Rollason, though!

 

[Storyline]

For what it is worth: Mark is/was the head of Suncoast marine in BC that was the North Americam importer of Rocna (and made the Canadian version before that).

By all reports he is a good guy. In my conversations with him (Both voice and email) I found him to be OK.

It did appear that he was dumped on by Rocna/Holdfast twice. The first was when Canadian Rocna production was shutdown and the second was having to deal with the returns of the China sourced Rocna (and having to lie about the quality of the shank steel).

Regards

First reaction was that the guy must be a glutton for punishment but I now think we are going to get a significant statement from CMP shortly. I just cannot believe that they have been sitting around doing nothing whilst getting all this really negative publicity. Hopefully it will include a polite message to bumbury along the lines of 'Thank you for all your help in the transition but now it is time to say goodbye'

They (CMP), must be kicking themselves they did not immediately announce a return to the use of Q&T bis80 for the shanks when they took over the brand - it would have been tough on those that bought Rocna over the past 3 years but they could have come up with some kind of upgrade/compensation fudge to keep them happy. As it stands, if they stick with the spec that the original designer said was not good enough then the Rocna brand will never regain top spot amongst the new gen anchors (IMHO).

There is an alternative. They could launch a 'new' (as per original spec) model and call it the Rocna Ocean. Up the price a bit and reduce the price of the Rocna Coastal/Lunchtime/Kedge (690MPa) and hey presto, a coherent anchor range.

Edit - Just read youen's post. So bumbury has not gone - maybe he binned Tina, not CMP.

 

[macd]

There is an alternative. They could launch a 'new' (as per original spec) model and call it the Rocna Ocean.

No, the 420's the Rocna Ocean: it has "no issues" in the abyssal depths.

 

[jordanbasset]

I do hope when CMP does make it's statement it is detailed and answers the points raised on here, other forums and by customers. I do hope we do not get another woolly statement similar to the last one.

 

[Sybarite]

I do hope when CMP does make it's statement it is detailed and answers the points raised on here, other forums and by customers. I do hope we do not get another woolly statement similar to the last one.

I don't. I was originally a fan of Rocna's but, with all of the trouble surrounding them, they are off my list now.

Is there really anything else to say?

Well yes. I wonder if there are any skeletons in the cupboard with the others?

 

[maxi77]

One question for the chandlers left in the lurch by Holdfast is was there any product liability insurance held by Holdfast that can be claimed against.

 

[misterg]

FWIW I've just been outside and given my Manson a belt with a hammer and a punch. Done the same to an 8.8 bolt. Neither marked but is that because the steel is hard or because the punch is softer than the steel?

Did the punch flatten out? If so: "Yes", the punch is softer than the steel --> cheap punch! (Or you picked up a nail by mistake.)

Try same with 5.8 bolt.

I really believe the difference will be very obvious.

Andy

(P.S. Thanks for the confirmation, Vyv.)