RNLI again.....income well spent?

[Polly's Kettle]

What absolute tosh (the original post that is)! Staff costs to turnover is completely different for different types of business. Akirk & Tranona already said it perfectly, but here it is again!

For a retailer, cost of good and rent will dominate, and staff costs should be very low.
For a bank, the main cost is the cost of money, low staff ratio again.
For an accountancy firm, or law firm, the staff cost ratio including partners might be 60% - their main cost is people.

Likewise the RNLI - the buildings are gifted to them, so their main costs are capex for the boats and people.

As far as I recall, the RNLI is lucky enough to be given and own its properties. If it had to rent them, the staff ratio would be lower ... but they would do a lot less. Would that help you be more comfortable about it?

If you think the staff costs should be free because it's a charity, why don't you pop along and volunteer - I expect they'd be more than pleased to reduce their staff costs so they can spend more on kit.

 

[TonyBuckley]

They have also been hit by their new opt-in communications policy which is largely driven by the GDPR legislation coming next year. But this has been more successful than they anticipated which shows the loyalty of their supporters.

https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news...nations-after-move-to-opt-in-fundraising.html

 

[TangaraToo]

Also zero link between income and expenditure when income is not related to the main activity of the charity. They don't sell anything. Increase in output (shouts) does not specifically increase revenue.
On that basis alone staff costs as a % of revenue is a pointless and misleading figure.

 

[rotrax]

From most of the replies I judge that the RNLI, while being far from perfect, is allowing our Governments to remain in the SAR/Coastguard treaties and is cost neutral to the taxpayer.

Worlwide it is the model admired by many.

I wonder if the French Government would accept such a system?

If, in fact, they were lucky enough to be offered it................................................

 

[Sailfree]

Do the actual people that man the lifeboats get paid anything?

No criticism intended just curious.

Personally I am a great Fan of the RNLI but hope the senior people are not benefiting from others contributions by paying themselves more than the job rates as I would not like anything to detract from the esteem in which most hold them.

I mention that as senior staff in schools/councils/utilities/banks do seem to all suffer from that!

 

[lpdsn]

Do the actual people that man the lifeboats get paid anything?

No criticism intended just curious.

Personally I am a great Fan of the RNLI but hope the senior people are not benefiting from others contributions by paying themselves more than the job rates as I would not like anything to detract from the esteem in which most hold them.

I mention that as senior staff in schools/councils/utilities/banks do seem to all suffer from that!

I believe there's a lot of paid coxswains and engineers/mechanics on the boats, and a few crews in remote locations are paid too where it would be impossible to be somewhere where they could hold down a job and be within reach of the lifeboat. I say few, but the only one I can call to mind is Spurn Head.

 

[dogleg]

Do the actual people that man the lifeboats get paid anything?

No criticism intended just curious.

Personally I am a great Fan of the RNLI but hope the senior people are not benefiting from others contributions by paying themselves more than the job rates as I would not like anything to detract from the esteem in which most hold them.

I mention that as senior staff in schools/councils/utilities/banks do seem to all suffer from that!

all ALB stations (130 approx.) will have a full time mechanic, many also have a full time coxswain while some combine the roles as a coxswain/mechanic, second coxswains and assistant mechanics will have a small annual retainer, crew are paid a small sum for service launches and exercises, while passage payments are paid when boats are on passage for repair or refit.

ILB stations I think will have a part time mechanic on an annual retainer.

 

[akirk]

Do the actual people that man the lifeboats get paid anything?

No criticism intended just curious.

Personally I am a great Fan of the RNLI but hope the senior people are not benefiting from others contributions by paying themselves more than the job rates as I would not like anything to detract from the esteem in which most hold them.

I mention that as senior staff in schools/councils/utilities/banks do seem to all suffer from that!

In most cases (and esp. the more professional charities) the 'senior people' to whom you refer have capabilities that would mean they could earn considerably more in a commercial setting
the current Chief Executive package is transparently and openly listed here: https://rnli.org/footer/faqs/chief-executive-salary-faqs not difficult to earn more than that as one of many consultants who sit working from home around the country with none of the responsibilities / staff management / etc. etc. that the RNLI Chief Executive would have - hardly a high salary package for someone running such a large and complex organisation...

if I recall correctly, one of the candidates on the current series of The Apprentice mentioned that they warn £200k p/a - let us guess which person is likely to be more experienced / capable at doing this job?!

for many years, unless run unprofessionally, big charities have benchmarked their people costs against their own sector and the commercial sector - could you get someone cheaper - of course, would it be the right person - probably not.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

If you think the staff costs should be free because it's a charity, why don't you pop along and volunteer - I expect they'd be more than pleased to reduce their staff costs so they can spend more on kit.

Volunteers aren't free! An organization still has to meet expenses, insurance, office accommodation and administration costs - all of which count as staff costs. I volunteer for the National Trust, and every session I do (perhaps 4 hours) costs them about £14 directly paid to me (travelling expenses). They then have to carry insurance in case I trip over a carpet and break my leg, or if I cause an accident that harms another person. There's also a part-time administrator checking all our expense claims, and making sure the roster is filled.

All the usual provisions of Health and Safety at Work apply just as much to volunteers as they do to paid staff.

Doubtless the equivalent insurance for the RNLI is a good deal more expensive, given the much greater risk factor in their work!

Finally, when I was working in a largish organization, we had to allow over 100% of salary as overheads when bidding for contracts where the full economic costs were to be recovered. That included NI and pension, adminsitrative overheads, office overheads and probably other things I've forgotten!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Company making widgets in a factory = staff costs -> smaller % of turnover
Company doing commercial and domestic cleaning = staff costs -> higher % of turnover

My own employers spend around 80% of turnover on staff.

 

[Polly's Kettle]

As referenced above, a few stations have full time paid crew. The Tower Station in London is a good example - it is such a busy station that most of the crew are full-time & paid.

 

[Cantata]

.......................Finally, when I was working in a largish organization, we had to allow over 100% of salary as overheads when bidding for contracts where the full economic costs were to be recovered. That included NI and pension, adminsitrative overheads, office overheads and probably other things I've forgotten!

We did exactly the same, although that was in central London.

 

[Tranona]

Finally, when I was working in a largish organization, we had to allow over 100% of salary as overheads when bidding for contracts where the full economic costs were to be recovered. That included NI and pension, adminsitrative overheads, office overheads and probably other things I've forgotten!

I hope that behind that simplistic figure there was some more sophisticated thought. I used to have a whole semester course on this subject which hopefully opened a manager's eyes to the folly of rules of thumb when in any decent organisation data was available, or could be easily collected, to enable the calculation of more useful metrics.

Anybody interested should look at Activity Based Costing (ABC) which aims to relate indirect costs to activities in relation to how they are used rather than apply a fixed %age to every job. Not necessarily a magic bullet but really helpful in understanding how resources are consumed. Can be very helpful in developing strategies for effective use of resources and value of individual products and service to the organisation.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I hope that behind that simplistic figure there was some more sophisticated thought. I used to have a whole semester course on this subject which hopefully opened a manager's eyes to the folly of rules of thumb when in any decent organisation data was available, or could be easily collected, to enable the calculation of more useful metrics.

Anybody interested should look at Activity Based Costing (ABC) which aims to relate indirect costs to activities in relation to how they are used rather than apply a fixed %age to every job. Not necessarily a magic bullet but really helpful in understanding how resources are consumed. Can be very helpful in developing strategies for effective use of resources and value of individual products and service to the organisation.

I have, of course, simply given the bottom line. The actual computation was detailed in our business plan, and was much more complex than this simplification. I have also ignored the fact that the method of calculation changed while I was there. As a government organization, we (of necessity) followed Treasury Rules in matters such as this; we did not have the freedom to do otherwise. Futher, the reason our rules changed was to bring us into line with EU rules, necessitated by bidding into projects funded by them; the change made little difference to the bottom line. I should also mention that as a high profile organization we were audited by the NAO several times in the 23 years I worked there, and never had a major issue.

It may not be ideal, but some organizations (which may well include the RNLI, as it is a charity and therefore subject to Charity Commission rules) don't have the freedom to use more sophisticated measures. Further, it is very difficult to measure things like productivity in a scientific organization - is a scientist who writes one paper in a year, but wins a Nobel prize for it, more or less productive than another who writes 10 that disappear without trace, but which have increased the total sum of knowledge? Especially as recognition often comes many years after the achievment that led to it. Then, there's someone like myself who rarely wrote more than one or two papers a year, but who maintained a resource used by everyone working on Antarctica?

Of course, we tried to create and monitor performance measures, but in the end they were all of doubtful value in measuring the actual value of the organization's work. When a major output is the diplomatic effect of maintaining a presence, how do you value that? Paying for us avoided the need for a permanent naval presence that would have cost far more, and the Foreign Office generally agreed with that assessment!

 

[Juan Twothree]

As referenced above, a few stations have full time paid crew. The Tower Station in London is a good example - it is such a busy station that most of the crew are full-time & paid.

Not most, but some. All three of the permanently-manned Thames stations have between 8 and 10 full-time staff (who work a rota system), and 50 or so volunteers, who each cover a minimum of two 12-hour shifts per month.

The reason for the crew being continuously on station isn't just the fact they are so busy, it's more to do with speed of response.

Most of the calls are to people who find themselves in the water for one reason or another, and there simply isn't time for the crew to be summoned by pager in the conventional way.

 

[Siriussl23]

If we didn't have such a charity (RNLI) does that mean we wouldn't have a rescue service in the UK?

Do commercial shipping companies make donations?

 

[JumbleDuck]

The reality is that the RNLI is generally considered by those that know as one of the best run charitable organisations in the country ...

Who has said that, and based on what criteria? Is there a UK equivalent of CharityWatch?

 

[Tranona]

Who has said that, and based on what criteria? Is there a UK equivalent of CharityWatch?

Charity Commission comments favourably. I also have heard from other sources I was involved with when doing work with the RNLI that it is probably best not to put on a public forum.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Worlwide it is the model admired by many.

People say that about the NHS as well. Curious how few other countries seem inclined to adopt our wonderful models ...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Finally, when I was working in a largish organization, we had to allow over 100% of salary as overheads when bidding for contracts where the full economic costs were to be recovered. That included NI and pension, adminsitrative overheads, office overheads and probably other things I've forgotten!

My secondment rate is about 180% of my salary.