RN submarine seamanship strikes (almost) again.

The draught of those ferries is 21 feet. That sub could have been at a depth 3 times that at periscope depth,depends which one it was. So to avoid a collision it could have simply lowered the periscope if needed.
 
jamie N said:
"A Submarine at periscope depth will not close to within 1500yds of an FV without her specific consent." I'm guessing that's the same for a ferry?
Seems fairly obvious that something's gone awry if the ferry got a scare.
A cover up by denial of the distances, a reprimand or a new career selling ice cream near Helensburgh for 'an' Officer? What's your call JumbleD?
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My guess, based on nothing you haven't read, is that there was no real risk but that that happened by luck as much as by judgment and that someone will be told that even if everything was under control, it is not good PR for the navy to go around annoying civilians. This is particularly so around the North Channel and Irish see where the navy's past record has not been stellar.
 
East Cardinal said:
But IRCPS does not give ferries right of way because they use the same routing on each trip.
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Of course. But it does suggest to the prudent navigator that these are areas in which to keep a particularly good lookout for them. If you have sailed in the North Channel then you will appreciate what Quandary has said about the speed of the ferries. What does IRPCS say about ships which deliberately conceal themselves?
 
JumbleDuck said:
My guess, based on nothing you haven't read, is that there was no real risk but that that happened by luck as much as by judgment and that someone will be told that even if everything was under control, it is not good PR for the navy to go around annoying civilians.
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What you've got to remember here JD is that these vessels don't only have sonars to help them avoid mud banks, they are permanently astute to any risk of impending collision....:rolleyes:
 
East Cardinal said:
You obviously have some axe to grind on this topic. Without the report I expect we cannot know exactly the circumstances.
But IRCPS does not give ferries right of way because they use the same routing on each trip.
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Having encountered those ferries dozens of times on that route of not seen even a hint of them taking that attitude.
 
Quandary said:
They bought them in Finland and they are very fast indeed, passage time is as good as the guzzling jet thingys that used to send the big pressure wave ashore as they went up the loch.
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I know. I've sailed in the Aland Islands and watched them squeeze through some pretty narrow channels between the rocks. Must've been well over a hundred different transits on their route.

I rarely see them doing more than about 20Kts ish in the North Channel. Guzzling jet thingys guzzled their fuel budget too quickly if they put their foot down. Think they sold them to Venezeula as they could afford the fuel, or at least they thought they could.
 
lpdsn said:
Probably about a year. They do strange stuff like checking facts. Investigations could be rattled off far quicker if they were to outsource them to us. :)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...t-investigation-branch-current-investigations
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Thank you for that link. Have just had a brief look, and see one incident involving an RN vessel and 9 involving ro ro ferry/cargo ships out of a total of 22 investigations.

Maybe somthing to think about when voicing opinions on RN navigation and lookout.
 
The only RN Navigator I have met and sailed with was absolutely top notch; he ended up in command of a Type 45, and my yotmaster instructor was at least equally brilliant, he was an ex-RN sub driver.

However there are abberations, like the Type 42 with an inexperienced OOW left to cope getting T-Boned by a tanker years ago, let alone the recent collisions with what should be the worlds' best warships, two Arleigh Burkes in the space of a few months and the shocking report on the Fitzgerald.

And the Astute class sub HMS Ambush coming into Gibraltar with quite serious collision damage.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36852365

I've always disagreed with Montserrat, the Sea isn't Cruel, but if you let your guard down it'll have you for breakfast.
 
dom said:
What you've got to remember here JD is that these vessels don't only have sonars to help them avoid mud banks, they are permanently astute to any risk of impending collision....:rolleyes:
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Their navigators have a very solid grounding in pilotage, I hear.

lpdsn said:
Having encountered those ferries dozens of times on that route of not seen even a hint of them taking that attitude.
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Indeed. I've met the Stena and P&O ones - it's difficult not to, as there are two on each route, sailing more-or-less constantly - everywhere between Cairnryan port and Belfast Lough and have always found them to be assiduous and courteous in sharing the sea.

lpdsn said:
I know. I've sailed in the Aland Islands and watched them squeeze through some pretty narrow channels between the rocks. Must've been well over a hundred different transits on their route.

I rarely see them doing more than about 20Kts ish in the North Channel. Guzzling jet thingys guzzled their fuel budget too quickly if they put their foot down. Think they sold them to Venezeula as they could afford the fuel, or at least they thought they could.
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The big issue for the North Channel route, apart from speed limits in Loch Ryan and Belfast Port, was that they are very picky about sea conditions and can't cope with big waves. As a result they could only operate something like 60% of planned sailings which was killing business. The basic idea of "We can get you to Belfast quicker than you can via Larne and the motorway" was good but only if they sailed. Great fun to travel on.

East Cardinal said:
Thank you for that link. Have just had a brief look, and see one incident involving an RN vessel and 9 involving ro ro ferry/cargo ships out of a total of 22 investigations.
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Remind us how many ships the RN has these days. CalMac alone has 31 ro-ro ferries in service, doing around 10 sailings per day, year round, on average.

Maybe somthing to think about when voicing opinions on RN navigation and lookout.
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Indeed. Particularly when you remember that RN accidents are not investigated by the MAIB unless they involve civilian craft.

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East Cardinal said:
Thank you for that link. Have just had a brief look, and see one incident involving an RN vessel and 9 involving ro ro ferry/cargo ships out of a total of 22 investigations.

Maybe somthing to think about when voicing opinions on RN navigation and lookout.
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If you want a fair comparison, you would have to consider the relative numbers of ferry/cargo ships compared with that of our ever shrinking RN. :rolleyes:
 
It's unfair to keep mentioning HMS Astute going aground - this is not a p' take.

It seems from what I've heard the skipper was very good - as one would have to be to get the job as C/O of first of class nuclear attack boat - but he was pressured by examiners to get them to a nearby jetty to help their trip home - damned if he did, damned if he didn't - I'm sure he now wishes he'd told them to get stuffed and walk or arrange a lift from a safer berth.
 
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