Righting A Yacht That Has Gone Over!

[Deleted member 36384]

Cooo!

What boat was that in then?

A Sigma 41. The boat was 6 miles East of Lamlash on the Isle of Arran. To the NW is Inchmarnock Water and beyond that, also to the NW, Loch Fyne about 25 to 30 NM fetch. It was a lovely, crisp, blue day, light wind. We had full sail up and when I looked upwind, there was a line of white horses almost on us. I have seen Katabatic winds funnelling out from the foot of a mountain on a calm night and it was like that.

 

[nimbusgb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQIrMSI9YBo - classic broach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG3jA6Fswak&NR=1 nasty!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySdfQaRlh4k&NR=1 yippee!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

....... Is releasing it a way of scandalising the main?

Yes, that is a good way of thinking about. Instead of the boom being just pushed in along one plane, the boom can now rise up on a second plane. It destroys all sail shape and you well get a flap going. Its not a controlled ease, just let it out the kicker control line and leave free.

If you have a boom vang (rod kicker) there is normally a stop to prevent the rod sections from separating but you dont need that much boom lift to trash the shape.

 

[Little Rascal]

Uhm, OK- should I be dumping the kicker only when at risk of dipping the boom? Or as a general means of de-powering?

Its an 'Arrgh!' moment thing - when the spreaders have their own wake, try it then!

I think you can forget all about in your Vega Rob

And in your Wayf, you'll be standing on your centreboard before you notice

 

[bobgarrett]

Seriously though, many years ago I was asked by a friend to crew with him on a test sail of a new yacht he was looking at buying.
Hearing that we were used to racing the salesman insisted that despite the wind strength we should try it under spinnaker. Rigging it we found the lines to hold the mast end of the pole from sliding up and down the mast track were not fitted. He said as long as we balanced up and down-haul well it would be OK.
So, we gave it a try and for a 30secs or so we carried it. Then 'bang' the pole end shot up and the yacht broached. So we gathered ourselves, dropped the spinnaker, retrieved it from the sea and sailed on.
Then the salesman said "good try guys, I think we can do better now we've seen the effects, let's try again".
And we did! 30 secs later 'bang' goes the pole end, over goes the boat. This time with the salesman up to his waist in the sea on the side deck.
We didn't try again, but then he didn't suggest it a third time.

But to return to the question, we righted having gone over quite a bit!

 

[Lakesailor]

Those youtube clips don't actually knockdown though. The main and the mast are clear of the water.
Still, it demonstrates how safe sailboats are.
I once was (under full sail) sorting out the genoa tracks on my pudgy little 18 ft Valiant in what I thought was a sheltered bay on Windermere when a catspaw gust struck (it was an Easterly wind, before I knew how nasty they are, on the lake) and suddenly my feet, which where on the side decks, were under water. I was more surprised than the boat, which just stood up again.
The only boats I have known to sink on the lake in the past 8 years that I've been here have been
a) Racing
and
b) Swamped (washboards out) or in the case of Class boats, loads of water into the cockpit (no bouyancy under class rules, man and bucket not up to the job).

 

[Thistle]

We've gone well over on a 23' boat when hit by a sudden and unexpected gust on an otherwise benign day (steady F3). She came up readily enough by herself. The worst thing was the leeward cockpit dodger acting as a scoop and bringing quite a lot of water into the cockpit, thankfully not to the level of the companionway. Some of the cable ties holding the dodgers parted so the scooping reduced and the cockpit drains lived up to their name.

The dodgers came off as soon as we were back on our berth and have not been replaced. Happy to sell them to anyone wanting to try the experiment for themselves

 

[Little Rascal]

Those youtube clips don't actually knockdown though. The main and the mast are clear of the water..

I would guess that most (many? some?) peoples "knockdowns" are no more than 60-70 degrees. It probably feels like a capsize but at 80-90 degrees people start falling out of cockpits!

The Cornish Cruising boat that lost it's keel was described as 'knocked down' but if had gone to 90 degrees I doubt it would have come back without the keel.

I might be wrong tho...

You certainly have to watch those katabatics!

 

[Zagato]

Do they sail

A Westerly Pageant? Apologies to W P owners but it was not my cup of tea, very low on excitement value. I will be disappointed if the Marie Holm IF boat/Contessa 26 are anywhere near similar. I want something relatively zippy, fun, efficient and easy to manoeuvre whilst on the go. I will have very low demands on interiors/cookers etc, so hope to gain a good sail instead!

Can't wait to get one and have some fun!!

 

[Ubergeekian]

A Sigma 41. The boat was 6 miles East of Lamlash on the Isle of Arran. To the NW is Inchmarnock Water and beyond that, also to the NW, Loch Fyne about 25 to 30 NM fetch. It was a lovely, crisp, blue day, light wind. We had full sail up and when I looked upwind, there was a line of white horses almost on us. I have seen Katabatic winds funnelling out from the foot of a mountain on a calm night and it was like that.

I've had a very similar experience north of Arran in the Jouster (no reasonable offer refused). We spent ages ghosting gently towards a stationary and clearly defined line in the water: as soon as we crossed it we were in a steady F5 and fairly busy with headsail change, reefing the main and so on. To put it mildly.

 

[flipper]

We had a knock down in last years Classic RTI on a 50' cutter. The wooden boom weighs 90kg and there is no kicker. We did an unexpected gybe, the boom lifted and caught on the backstay. I was foredeck crew and leaning on the windward rail amidships one minute, then sliding om my @rse down a vertical deck into the ogin up to my knees the next, but still in the boat. I remember focussing on the shroud to grab that stopped me continuing over the side. The mainsail tore completely below the third reef but the 19 tons of boat came up surprisingly quickly - minus both winch handles which had been on the cockpit seat.
We tied in the third reef and carried on.

I then went and put my LJ on

 

[AliM]

The trouble with you racers is that you like to tell the scare stories. The OP is asking to be reassured, and all you can do is tell him (or possibly her) is about all the times when you broached.

So to go back to the OP (and to repeat a few of the answers) - unless you are really trying, then it is almost unknown to capsize a yacht in the sort of conditions that you are likely to be out in. If it gets a bit lively, then reef and you'll probably not go any slower. As you get more used to the boat, you'll judge that "bit lively" better, but start by being as cautious so that you are comfortable and do not worry.

Now relax, and enjoy it!

 

[Lakesailor]

That's one way to look at it. It works well.

If you are of a more enquiring mind you will want to stretch the envelope until you know it's limits. Then stay below them. The same as driving really. Some people never approach the limits of their car and "threepenny bit" their way around bends their whole driving life. Others give a bit of stick, sometimes in the heat of proper competition and learn what is safe and what is dicey.
Horror stories about wild weather sailing all have the same message though.
It's not going to fall over.

 

[Zagato]

Apparently a Drascombe Coaster will right itself when knocked flat but a Longboat like mine won't (it is a completely open boat) and somebody did tip one over last year and it took 3 separate groups (rescue services etc)working together to get it back up and into harbour. I will feel much safer in a proper yacht especially in the Solent!

 

[zarathustra]

The trouble with you racers is that you like to tell the scare stories.

Those are the best stories. Keep 'em coming.

 

[rob2]

Many years ago I sailed on a mate's CO26 and we set out for France - ending up in Poole due to inclement weather! On the return trip we made good time, too good! Arriving at the Needles Fairway before the tide turned in our favour, wind against tide making big rollers higher than the mast. Two of us went below to don harness ready to get the main down, but as we reached the top of the next wave the wind laid her over. Now knockdowns are quite unusual in a long-keeler but the point is she righted immediately and we hauled the main down to run in under jib alone - drinking mugs of tea and watching the racing fleet charge past us in total disarray, spinnakers in wine glass wraps, etc.

Should have got the main down earlier, but no big deal - just rather wet!

Rob.

 

[Little Rascal]

The OP is asking to be reassured...

So:

1. Reef early enough upwind.
2. Don't push your luck with a spinnaker downwind.
3. Avoid big ocean waves/gales.
4. Don't sail near mountains!
5. Never jam your sheets.
6. Close those hatches when it's rough.
7. Don't go racing with this lot!

 

[underdog]

Righting a yacht that has gone over

Some 7 years ago while racing in December my mini tonner 23 ft capsized while running down wind with spinnaker and full main up.A sudden 30 degree wind shift caused anunexpected gybe with the result the boat was thrown over at 90 degrees. The crew was left hanging on in the water. Instead of the boat coming upright she turned turtle and subsequently sank. Fortunately we were all fished out of the water by the rest of the fleet within a few minutes.
The boat disappeared beneath the waves to be recovered a month later by divers using airbags. No damage to the mast sails or hull. Once dried out I added a 100kg lead bulb to the keel to prevent a similar occurence.

 

[William_H]

Knock Down

All of the above are applicable to the question. Basically it takes a spinacker to really knock down a boat. Unfortunately the spin does not spill wind but can tend to hold the boat down. Often made worse by easing the sheets.
We have a particular type of 27ft yacht called an M27 at our club. They are raced fiercely. At least one has sunk in a spin knock down /broach where water entered the front hatch kept open for spin stowage and main entrance. It was on fairly flat water. Other instances with this type have seen the crew standing on the keel trying to get it to return to upright. Boat came up and left some of the crew behind in the water
However this type is unusual and most others including my own vertical lifting keel TS are tested and proven self righting. I have tested mine many times with spin. The water flows into the cockpit over the sides but not into the cabin even with wash boards out. I would be more worried in really rough seas however. My biggest worry is losing crew overboard. Twice happened now.(all rescued)
Without a spin I can not get my boat to lay down as it rounds up to head to wind as the rudder becomes ineffective. So don't worry you probably7 will never be mad enough to test your boat. olewill

 

[moondancer]

Even in my 24 footer a complete knockdown would be a pretty extreme storm force event when cruising carefully, reefing early and sailing upright.


I have had the mast tip in the water when racing with a big spinnaker that went up in 25 knots of wind and we broached. She popped up straight away with the spinnaker in strips.

John Apps has just done, I think his fourth Atlantic crossing in his 27 footer, so I wouldn't worry about it.