Retired and fit - looking for a boat. Advice?

PaulRainbow said:
Given a £50K budget, do you still think a Fulmar is the best choice ?
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Based on neptis's original post he talked about a Centaur and LM28. No mention of his budget, but a possible buying fixer upper. Post #4 mentioned a Fulmar rather than a Centaur to go Round Britian. Post #10 recommended a Fulmar. In Post #16 neptis mentioned his budget which is far greater than needed for a Centaur fixer upper. Post #19 a Fulmer was again included in a list of suggested boats. It was only in Post #39 I contributed to the thread. This included my comment "The best advice I can give is to buy a boat, possibly not a Fulmar, in the best condition you can find ." I also suggested if he wanted a Fulmar he could get advice from me and look at mine. Links to a PowerPoint presentation and a video were included to show how serious I was and neptis liked the post and commented it in post #42.

At no point have I recommended his best choice is a Fulmar. I have critised several suggestions on specific boats from extensive mileage under sail on them. Choosing a yacht for the first time is a very big decision and neptis started the thread with his ideas to his best choice. The problem for neptis is to decide who is providing good sound advice as he is new to the forum. He may well choose a larger and more modern boat than a Fulmar but he still has to decide what is best for him. Having been sailing since 1965, mainly in yachts of 30ft or longer, I do have a lot experience of many boats. My last boat and Concerto, I sail both singlehanded.

Paul, just because neptis has £50,000 does not mean he has to spend all of it to buy a yacht to meet his needs. He certainly seems to be asking the right questions and getting plenty of good advice. However, until he can start looking at different boats, I doubt he will understand exactly what he wants from a boat or the size he should purchase.
 
Concerto said:
Based on neptis's original post he talked about a Centaur and LM28. No mention of his budget, but a possible buying fixer upper. Post #4 mentioned a Fulmar rather than a Centaur to go Round Britian. Post #10 recommended a Fulmar. In Post #16 neptis mentioned his budget which is far greater than needed for a Centaur fixer upper. Post #19 a Fulmer was again included in a list of suggested boats. It was only in Post #39 I contributed to the thread. This included my comment "The best advice I can give is to buy a boat, possibly not a Fulmar, in the best condition you can find ." I also suggested if he wanted a Fulmar he could get advice from me and look at mine. Links to a PowerPoint presentation and a video were included to show how serious I was and neptis liked the post and commented it in post #42.

At no point have I recommended his best choice is a Fulmar. I have critised several suggestions on specific boats from extensive mileage under sail on them. Choosing a yacht for the first time is a very big decision and neptis started the thread with his ideas to his best choice. The problem for neptis is to decide who is providing good sound advice as he is new to the forum. He may well choose a larger and more modern boat than a Fulmar but he still has to decide what is best for him. Having been sailing since 1965, mainly in yachts of 30ft or longer, I do have a lot experience of many boats. My last boat and Concerto, I sail both singlehanded.

Paul, just because neptis has £50,000 does not mean he has to spend all of it to buy a yacht to meet his needs. He certainly seems to be asking the right questions and getting plenty of good advice. However, until he can start looking at different boats, I doubt he will understand exactly what he wants from a boat or the size he should purchase.
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Thanks for that. I have a strong affection for Westerly’s and a feeling that a lot of more modern boats are designed for the Mediterranean rather than the conditions and geography I want to explore. I very much value the range of advice from the forum, I simply don’t have the experience you have. What I don’t expect is a ‘right answer’.
 
Laminar Flow said:
I generally stay out of these discussions because boat choice is such an personal matter.

On older boats: Well, I like fixing things, that doesn't frighten me a bit and I can do most everything myself. Like Kukri, I do wonder what other people do with their time. Decent heads, galleys, berths, headroom, space, water storage, engine range, refridegeration are not the sole prerogative of current designs, our 31.5' tub (see avatar) has all that, plus a roof over our heads and we seem to manage 6kts average under sail as well on passage; sometimes even better. My wife and I live aboard and cruise 3-4 months every year. - Unlike some supposedly better modern designs, our little ship is directionally stable and will track downwind in 30kts like on rails, without the slightest inclination to broach and in perfect control. Performance, perhaps, has it's price as well. True, we are not as good to weather as some, which brings me to my next point: shallow draft.

I hope I'll never grow tired of exploring back waters. We love going up the rivers in Brittany, the canals in Holland and the Islands of the Southern Baltic; there are many places where deep draft simply cannot go. You do not need bilge keels either to take the ground; legs work for us. If you need a metre below your keel, don't go to Holland or the Waddenzee and stay out of rivers. Crossing a sea is fine, its the edges that are the interesting part.

I wish the OP all the luck finding his own perfect boat.
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Avatars are too tiny to help, what boat is it?
 
neptis said:
Yep! But what great sounding board. I’ve got a bit of time to think. Spend the summer looking at a long list, shortlist and purchase in the autumn. Certainly like the sound of a number of the suggestions.

That’s useful. I have always thought a smaller boat would be less of a handful short-handed and see some virtue in simplicity. My experience with powered windlasses is probably not great having had one with a mechanical failure.
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I find it easier to steer my 31 ft longbow onto a marina berth than my 18 ft bradwell
 
Daydream believer said:
I did not say it was. But you did suggest that the problems with a long keel could be easily solved . A Twister ( according to the owners) is renowned for its inability to accept instruction from the helm when in reverse.
However, re aligning a prop, & fitting bow thrusters is a little- shall we say- "over the top". So perhaps I was being a little sarcastic (sorry)
I further suggest that your boat looks lovely below the waterline, :rolleyes: but not really what I would call "long keeled"
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Yeah I told my mate this when he bought his twister. I helped him launch it and and took her to Glencoe for him. I was gobsmacked when I watched John at the yard in Ardfern manouvre her out of the pontoon and onto the fuel dock (from memory) in a bit of a tide. Backwards all the way and he just blasted the engine, up and down its range and worked the tiller like a dance and she did everything he told her to. It was a masterclass and a revelation that they can reverse, it's the skippers that can't reverse them!
 
steve yates said:
Yeah I told my mate this when he bought his twister. I helped him launch it and and took her to Glencoe for him. I was gobsmacked when I watched John at the yard in Ardfern manouvre her out of the pontoon and onto the fuel dock (from memory) in a bit of a tide. Backwards all the way and he just blasted the engine, up and down its range and worked the tiller like a dance and she did everything he told her to. It was a masterclass and a revelation that they can reverse, it's the skippers that can't reverse them!
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I have had 2 Stellas which are basically small twisters & had no problem whatsoever manouvering either way single handed in & out of tight situations. Well the second one, as the first had a Stuart turner with no reverse, just a centrifugal clutch in forward. That could be a bit fun when/if it actually started.

However, I was lambasted by some twister owners on this forum for suggesting that a Twister could be maneuvered with a bit of practice. One owner even quoted Cunliffe who suggested them to be "difficult" .
I am sure it can be solved with a bit of learning. Some pick up berthing straight away. Others never seem to get it, as long as they try . It is a pity really because it adds a degree of unwanted stress to what might otherwise be a great day's sailing..
But to each his own.
 
neptis said:
Thanks for that. I have a strong affection for Westerly’s and a feeling that a lot of more modern boats are designed for the Mediterranean rather than the conditions and geography I want to explore. I very much value the range of advice from the forum, I simply don’t have the experience you have. What I don’t expect is a ‘right answer’.
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That is just not the case - although Med use is uppermost in designers' minds, particularly recently, the boats from the early 2000s that are in your budget are widely used all round the UK in both private and charter use.

In many ways larger boats are easier to handle as things move more slowly and you can kit them out with easy handling as a priority. I have no difficulty in handling my 33' (nor the previous 37') on my own. The secret is to work out what are the key operations that are potential problems and adapt your boat and technique to minimise problems. Careful planning to work within your limitations reduces the chance of cock-ups. One of the reasons why people are able to cruise safely and enjoyably now without needing one of those heavyweight (good in a blow) type boats is that weather forecasting is so good that you can avoid getting caught out. Coastal cruising, particularly round Britain is mostly about day sailing working the tides and and managing the headlands and you end up spending more time tied up or anchored than on the move. Hence the importance of having a boat that is easy to berth, good anchoring gear and comfortable domestic accommodation.
 
Tranona said:
That is just not the case - although Med use is uppermost in designers' minds, particularly recently, the boats from the early 2000s that are in your budget are widely used all round the UK in both private and charter use.

In many ways larger boats are easier to handle as things move more slowly and you can kit them out with easy handling as a priority. I have no difficulty in handling my 33' (nor the previous 37') on my own. The secret is to work out what are the key operations that are potential problems and adapt your boat and technique to minimise problems. Careful planning to work within your limitations reduces the chance of cock-ups. One of the reasons why people are able to cruise safely and enjoyably now without needing one of those heavyweight (good in a blow) type boats is that weather forecasting is so good that you can avoid getting caught out. Coastal cruising, particularly round Britain is mostly about day sailing working the tides and and managing the headlands and you end up spending more time tied up or anchored than on the move. Hence the importance of having a boat that is easy to berth, good anchoring gear and comfortable domestic accommodation.
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That’s a useful bit of myth debunking.
 
Until you do get caught out.

Perfect weather forecasting allows you to cruise in perfect safety in a dinghy, as long as you have infinite time, and you don’t get bored sitting at anchor or in a marina for days at a time, waiting on weather.

Or you can cruise - as some do - in a planing power boat, dashing from A to B in a weather window of a few hours.

But dinghy cruising and power boat cruisingwhilst differing in budget are the paths of minorities.

Most people are time constrained. If the owner is not, the crew may be.

Very many people will convince themselves that the weather will be OK, or that, say, a bar at a river entrance will be OK, in order to get home safely.

I think there are limits to the argument from improved weather forecasting. It helps but it’s not the whole answer. Human nature still plays a hand.
 
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Well - having dealt out the best piece of advice in the whole thread :giggle: Perhaps its time for a Spaniard in the works.
If I was in the position in which the OP finds himself - never mind all this baloney about clapped out antique Centaurs (On which I have sailed thousands of miles) or any of the other daft nonsense being peddled
Feast your eyes on this beauty.
No need to thank me for the 2 gems of information that I have bestowed on you all - I'm content in the knowledge that I have done so and need no praise
Yours in pomposity
Boat Details - Mark Cameron Yachts - Specialist Sail and Motorboat Brokerage
 
claymore said:
Well - having dealt out the best piece of advice in the whole thread :giggle: Perhaps its time for a Spaniard in the works.
If I was in the position in which the OP finds himself - never mind all this baloney about clapped out antique Centaurs (On which I have sailed thousands of miles) or any of the other daft nonsense being peddled
Feast your eyes on this beauty.
No need to thank me for the 2 gems of information that I have bestowed on you all - I'm content in the knowledge that I have done so and need no praise
Yours in pomposity
Boat Details - Mark Cameron Yachts - Specialist Sail and Motorboat Brokerage
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That ticks so many boxes! Ian Anderson to boot.
 
Kukri said:
Until you do get caught out.

Very many people will convince themselves that the weather will be OK, or that, say, a bar at a river entrance will be OK, in order to get home safely.

I think there are limits to the argument from improved weather forecasting. It helps but it’s not the whole answer. Human nature still plays a hand.
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I just wonder, then how the thousands of folks who go cruising round the UK safely in the kind of boats that have dominated the market for the last 30 years or so, if it is all so dangerous and you might get "caught out". Even if you are through negligence or bad luck, how many have foundered because they did not have one of the "approved" boats. Really seems to me from what you say, to be all too dangerous and perhaps after 20 years of cruising in the wrong type of boat I should give up.
 
Tranona said:
I just wonder, then how the thousands of folks who go cruising round the UK safely in the kind of boats that have dominated the market for the last 30 years or so, if it is all so dangerous and you might get "caught out". Even if you are through negligence or bad luck, how many have foundered because they did not have one of the "approved" boats. Really seems to me from what you say, to be all too dangerous and perhaps after 20 years of cruising in the wrong type of boat I should give up.
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No need to be hasty - a decision like that needs around 20 years of consideration
 
Tranona said:
I just wonder, then how the thousands of folks who go cruising round the UK safely in the kind of boats that have dominated the market for the last 30 years or so, if it is all so dangerous and you might get "caught out". Even if you are through negligence or bad luck, how many have foundered because they did not have one of the "approved" boats. Really seems to me from what you say, to be all too dangerous and perhaps after 20 years of cruising in the wrong type of boat I should give up.
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I think this is getting silly. All I said was that the most perfect weather forecasts don’t deal with human nature.

People in Britain can have whatever sort of boat they like. Most of us like the boat we have. That is, after all, why we bought that particular boat. It’s likely that most of our experience will be in the sort of boat that we have. So most of us will recommend that sort of boat.

We can change our minds and we can change the sort of sailing that we do.
 
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Tranona said:
That is just not the case - although Med use is uppermost in designers' minds, particularly recently, the boats from the early 2000s that are in your budget are widely used all round the UK in both private and charter use.

In many ways larger boats are easier to handle as things move more slowly and you can kit them out with easy handling as a priority. I have no difficulty in handling my 33' (nor the previous 37') on my own. The secret is to work out what are the key operations that are potential problems and adapt your boat and technique to minimise problems. Careful planning to work within your limitations reduces the chance of cock-ups. One of the reasons why people are able to cruise safely and enjoyably now without needing one of those heavyweight (good in a blow) type boats is that weather forecasting is so good that you can avoid getting caught out. Coastal cruising, particularly round Britain is mostly about day sailing working the tides and and managing the headlands and you end up spending more time tied up or anchored than on the move. Hence the importance of having a boat that is easy to berth, good anchoring gear and comfortable domestic accommodation.
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This is a fair comment. The boats have been designed to maximise the internal volume to offer great interior accomodation and by factory production offer good value for money.

However the areas I find not agreeable to me in more modern boats than my Fulmar are:-
Construction using a bonded matrix to stiffen the hull and locate bulkheads and furniture.
Increasingly wide beam for stability and reduction of the balast ratio make them float on the water rather than in the water.
Long flat aft runs can cause wave slap, especially at anchor, and usually the master cabin is aft meaning a bad night's sleep.
Deep thin keels means less lateral area making more leeway, usually in a cross wind berthing in a marina.
Higher freeboard makes access on and off a pontoon finger a much longer stretch. The transom gate is the solution meaning you have to reverse into every berth.
Modern rigs are less powerful because they are relatively smaller due to the shallow wide hull with low ballast ratio.
The cut away fore front at the bow, with little bouyancy, can cause slamming in a seaway.
Wide cockpits are great in harbour but can be difficult to brace in rough weather.

A few years ago I took my daughter to the Southampton Boat Show and she wanted to see different yachts of a similar size to my Fulmar. She only comes sailing occasionally as she lives 250 miles away. The wind was a SW5 making the marina slightly rougher than normal. On the Dufour 32 we went below and within a couple of minutes she left the main cabin and went back on the pontoon. I stayed chatting for a while asking about the boat. When I joined her, I asked why she left. The motion was unpleasant and was making her feel seasick. She has never been seasick when sailing with me in all weathers. The motion of the older boats is so much more relaxed and smooth.

It is interesting when you get a chance to talk to yacht designers. Over the years I have spoken to quite a few. Shortly before Ed Dubios died I had a long chat with him about the Fulmar. This was the boat that really made him as a designer and was still one of his prefered boats to sail because he said "He got everything just about right". He later went on to design many larger yachts, so he had a wide choice.

How many yachts can be truly called a cruiser racer. Some modern yachts are used by sailing schools, but are never raced. The Fulmar by comparison was a true cruiser racer. She was raced by many crews in all weathers, used for International Match racing, used as sailing school boats - many on the forum even started sailing on a Fulmar. She is very predictable to handle and I find very easy to sail singlehanded. There are many Fulmar owners who have kept their boats for over 25 years, making me a newcomber at 6 years, so this must prove they are greatly appreciated and capable. You always hear people comment that modern boats are so much better, but if this was so, why do some owners keep them so long? Another friend who is a long term a Fulmar owner keeps looking at different boats, new and secondhand, but cannot find anything he thinks would do the job better.

I could continue on, but the decision neptis is trying to make is to find the compromise that suits him best. All yacht owners feel they have excellent boats and will always push their choice as best, so I am not alone. This just makes his choice even more difficult. There is no advice that can ensure he makes the right choice. We all learn about a specific boat in detail only after owning it for some time. All the boats discussed will offer different choices that may or may not appeal to him. The biggest problem is lack of choice currently in the secondhand market and the opportunity to going and physically look.
 
My only experience of a Fulmar was on a delivery with Peter Buckle, whom many of us will know. She struck me as a very nice boat. The point of mentioning Peter was just that in the course of the passage he said that “all boats are good; there is no right or wrong boat!” Or words to that effect, and as a very experienced delivery skipper he has probably seen more types than most of us.
 
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