Retired and fit - looking for a boat. Advice?

[Daydream believer]

Well - having dealt out the best piece of advice in the whole thread Perhaps its time for a Spaniard in the works.
If I was in the position in which the OP finds himself - never mind all this baloney about clapped out antique Centaurs (On which I have sailed thousands of miles) or any of the other daft nonsense being peddled
Feast your eyes on this beauty.
No need to thank me for the 2 gems of information that I have bestowed on you all - I'm content in the knowledge that I have done so and need no praise
Yours in pomposity
Boat Details - Mark Cameron Yachts - Specialist Sail and Motorboat Brokerage

of course the OP could go for a more modern equivalent & still be within budget
equivalent to claymores suggestion

 

[Tranona]

This is a fair comment. The boats have been designed to maximise the internal volume to offer great interior accomodation and by factory production offer good value for money.

However the areas I find not agreeable to me in more modern boats than my Fulmar are:-
Construction using a bonded matrix to stiffen the hull and locate bulkheads and furniture.
Increasingly wide beam for stability and reduction of the balast ratio make them float on the water rather than in the water.
Long flat aft runs can cause wave slap, especially at anchor, and usually the master cabin is aft meaning a bad night's sleep.
Deep thin keels means less lateral area making more leeway, usually in a cross wind berthing in a marina.
Higher freeboard makes access on and off a pontoon finger a much longer stretch. The transom gate is the solution meaning you have to reverse into every berth.
Modern rigs are less powerful because they are relatively smaller due to the shallow wide hull with low ballast ratio.
The cut away fore front at the bow, with little bouyancy, can cause slamming in a seaway.
Wide cockpits are great in harbour but can be difficult to brace in rough weather.

A few years ago I took my daughter to the Southampton Boat Show and she wanted to see different yachts of a similar size to my Fulmar. She only comes sailing occasionally as she lives 250 miles away. The wind was a SW5 making the marina slightly rougher than normal. On the Dufour 32 we went below and within a couple of minutes she left the main cabin and went back on the pontoon. I stayed chatting for a while asking about the boat. When I joined her, I asked why she left. The motion was unpleasant and was making her feel seasick. She has never been seasick when sailing with me in all weathers. The motion of the older boats is so much more relaxed and smooth.

It is interesting when you get a chance to talk to yacht designers. Over the years I have spoken to quite a few. Shortly before Ed Dubios died I had a long chat with him about the Fulmar. This was the boat that really made him as a designer and was still one of his prefered boats to sail because he said "He got everything just about right". He later went on to design many larger yachts, so he had a wide choice.

How many yachts can be truly called a cruiser racer. Some modern yachts are used by sailing schools, but are never raced. The Fulmar by comparison was a true cruiser racer. She was raced by many crews in all weathers, used for International Match racing, used as sailing school boats - many on the forum even started sailing on a Fulmar. She is very predictable to handle and I find very easy to sail singlehanded. There are many Fulmar owners who have kept their boats for over 25 years, making me a newcomber at 6 years, so this must prove they are greatly appreciated and capable. You always hear people comment that modern boats are so much better, but if this was so, why do some owners keep them so long? Another friend who is a long term a Fulmar owner keeps looking at different boats, new and secondhand, but cannot find anything he thinks would do the job better.

I could continue on, but the decision neptis is trying to make is to find the compromise that suits him best. All yacht owners feel they have excellent boats and will always push their choice as best, so I am not alone. This just makes his choice even more difficult. There is no advice that can ensure he makes the right choice. We all learn about a specific boat in detail only after owning it for some time. All the boats discussed will offer different choices that may or may not appeal to him. The biggest problem is lack of choice currently in the secondhand market and the opportunity to going and physically look.

I know you love your boat - and in the same way I could write just as long an account as to why I prefer my Bavaria to your Fulmar (or boats like it). For example, why being a so called cruiser racer make it somehow superior when most buyers are not in the least bit interested in racing? And why if they are so brilliant were so relatively few sold and as soon as the newer boats came on the market sales of Westerlys fell off a cliff? The answer is simple, the newer boats met customers' expectations. You are right about many of the differences in design and construction (although there seems to be some misunderstanding of some principles and sweeping generalisations) , but so what? Your new car is designed and constructed in a totally different way from a 1980s - thank goodness - its called progress. of course not everything is necessarily an improvement, but having owned two of them that have performed faultlessly, I have to say nothing would tempt me back to boats that I admired in my early days of cruising. In fact I did look yesterday at one that I coveted when they were new in the 1980s and quickly came to the conclusion that my spectacles were indeed very rose coloured. Narrow, cramped, poor ergonomics, poor systems - and not aged well, although would no doubt sail better in heavier weather, so not "agreeable" to me at all. Perhaps most telling of all is that many buyers of modern boats have owned older style boats, so know what the pros and cons are. Doubt many would prefer to go back.

Good that you share your videos and experiences of your boat - but maybe you have to recognise that it is out of kilter with perhaps the majority of buyers' expectations in the mid 30' size range..

 

[Tranona]

I think this is getting silly. All I said was that the most perfect weather forecasts don’t deal with human nature.

Sorry for being a bit flippant - but it is the starting point of "until you get caught out" which I would suggest is not a starting point with the implicit suggestion that certain types of boats are not up to it but a consideration to be aware of and avoid. Obviously sometimes you get it wrong, but it is usually the crew that gives in first, not the boat.

 

[TSB240]

I am following this thread with considerable interest other than the usual pushing of ones own brand of boat!

I spent spring in 2019 just before I retired crusing in company for four weeks with a group of boats from North Wales to the Western Isles and back.

Our boat was not the smallest in the group but we did appreciate being invited on board the Amel Santorini and an armchair equipped Najad.! Neither of which are in my or the Ops budget.

We also had a fine dining experience onboard a Vertue 22 with two other couples.

We mainly sailed and kept company with friends on a BK Sadler 32.

During this time I was given much advice on potential for our retirement boat package from an eclectic group of sailors, most had extended ocean crossings in their log books.

I think the best advice was buy the boat that my wife and myself could really enjoy extended cruising in and to bear in mind what we thought we could handle when we were 10 years older and what area we intend to cruise.

My budget is slightly less than the OPs.

I still have not found a better boat that I want more than the one I currently own.
She will be going on the market this year but only after a trip (hopefully) to the Scillies and because of impending hip operations that were cancelled by the first covid lock down.

When our cruise finished the owner of the Vertue and I had come to a similar conclusion as to our future cruising ground and boat ownership requirements.

He bought during lockdown a Moody Eclipse 33 without an actual viewing but using a surveyor and video viewing.

Good luck if you can find one as any good boats of this type that come on the market at the right value are selling within days.

 

[Concerto]

I know you love your boat - and in the same way I could write just as long an account as to why I prefer my Bavaria to your Fulmar (or boats like it). For example, why being a so called cruiser racer make it somehow superior when most buyers are not in the least bit interested in racing? And why if they are so brilliant were so relatively few sold and as soon as the newer boats came on the market sales of Westerlys fell off a cliff? The answer is simple, the newer boats met customers' expectations. You are right about many of the differences in design and construction (although there seems to be some misunderstanding of some principles and sweeping generalisations) , but so what? Your new car is designed and constructed in a totally different way from a 1980s - thank goodness - its called progress. of course not everything is necessarily an improvement, but having owned two of them that have performed faultlessly, I have to say nothing would tempt me back to boats that I admired in my early days of cruising. In fact I did look yesterday at one that I coveted when they were new in the 1980s and quickly came to the conclusion that my spectacles were indeed very rose coloured. Narrow, cramped, poor ergonomics, poor systems - and not aged well, although would no doubt sail better in heavier weather, so not "agreeable" to me at all. Perhaps most telling of all is that many buyers of modern boats have owned older style boats, so know what the pros and cons are. Doubt many would prefer to go back.

Good that you share your videos and experiences of your boat - but maybe you have to recognise that it is out of kilter with perhaps the majority of buyers' expectations in the mid 30' size range..

You ask why the sales of Westerly's fell off a cliff. Well they constructed in a traditional way with bonded bulkheads and the hull deck joint. They had wood interiors that were hand made. In comparison many of the continental yards had governement support and tax breaks to assist charter sales, which no British yard had. Many of the continental yards went into factory production (land to expand was much cheaper to aquire and develop) and using numerous agents to sell their boats. They benefitted from economies of scale making their boats cheaper. The final nail in the coffin was an exchange rate that was making continental boats even cheaper. That is why we now have virtually no major yards building yachts in bulk.

 

[Concerto]

He bought during lockdown a Moody Eclipse 33 without an actual viewing but using a surveyor and video viewing.

I have not sailed the Moody Eclipse 33, but my late parents owned an Eclipse 43 - the big sister. Moodys were well built and certainly nice to live on. He should enjoy his boat. It is a shame that the Marine Projects factories that built Moodys, Sigmas are now only building Princess power boats.

 

[Jim@sea]

I’m retiring but fit and looking for a boat. Sailed dinghy’s as a kid, as an adult crewed on trips around the UK and chartered flotilla yachts in the med. So fairly basic experience and very limited time. Now I have time and funds will not be a constraint. I want something that I can sail around the UK for starters with my partner (equivalent skill). Not seen anything new that appeals – but I could get hold of something like a Westerly Centaur or LM 28 and tidy it up.
Any thoughts on what I should look for?

Get one that has had a recent engine fitted. I made a mistake thinking that the yacht I was buying with a Thornycroft BMC engine would as you can get virtually any engine part for a MGB GT have the same availability for the BMC diesels. Sadly that is not the case. I also looked at Achilles 24 with a Volvo diesel and again engine parts are unobtainable. A friend bought a yacht with a Volvo/Perkins engine and needed up putting a Chinese Diesel in.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Avatars are too tiny to help, what boat is it?

She is a much modified Colvic Watson 32 with a much larger rig and twice the standard SA, enlarged & streamlined rudder and deadwood. She does steer in reverse inspite of a long keel & deep fore foot; an unexpected and surprising side effect of the underwater mods. We almost always back her in. No bow thruster.

 

[Never Grumble]

That ticks so many boxes! Ian Anderson to boot.

Wasn't he the lead singer of Jethro Tull? Played a mean flute!

 

[Laminar Flow]

I just wonder, then how the thousands of folks who go cruising round the UK safely in the kind of boats that have dominated the market for the last 30 years or so, if it is all so dangerous and you might get "caught out". Even if you are through negligence or bad luck, how many have foundered because they did not have one of the "approved" boats. Really seems to me from what you say, to be all too dangerous and perhaps after 20 years of cruising in the wrong type of boat I should give up.

According to a survey done by a yard that builds, stores and maintains the boats for it's customers (as quoted by a yacht designer of my acquaintance), the average boat is used on three days a year. This does cut down the statistical risk of getting into trouble quite a bit.

Speaking of statistics: 95% of all recreational sailing is done in winds of less than F6 (25kt); of this 80% is done in winds below a F5 (15kt).

I should say that in this context the great majority of all craft currently afloat would meet the above statistical requirement for seaworthiness.

 

[erich27]

Can get dual UK / EU nationality which helps.
Budget probably under 50k to start but if the advice is get a centaur / fulmar and re- engine and re / rig. Then it’s all in range.

Hello Neptis < I am selling an Oyster Lightwave 395 on behalf of a recently deceased friend via Dickies International Yacht Sales in Port Penrhyn, North Wales. details on their website; and it would fit your needs for round the UK and further afield afterwards.
Regards Erich

 

[neptis]

Hello Neptis < I am selling an Oyster Lightwave 395 on behalf of a recently deceased friend via Dickies International Yacht Sales in Port Penrhyn, North Wales. details on their website; and it would fit your needs for round the UK and further afield afterwards.
Regards Erich

A lot of boat for the money. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Malish]

Hello Neptis < I am selling an Oyster Lightwave 395 on behalf of a recently deceased friend via Dickies International Yacht Sales in Port Penrhyn, North Wales. details on their website; and it would fit your needs for round the UK and further afield afterwards.
Regards Erich

Is that the one which has the blurred photographs?

 

[erich27]

A lot of boat for the money. Thanks for the tip.

Also on sale via Network YachtBrokers, Conwy. ( probably better photos on their website, but without the internal cushions ! ) Also re-engined in 2015 with approx. 140 hours on the replacement BETA 30 hp

 

[Tranona]

You ask why the sales of Westerly's fell off a cliff. Well they constructed in a traditional way with bonded bulkheads and the hull deck joint. They had wood interiors that were hand made. In comparison many of the continental yards had governement support and tax breaks to assist charter sales, which no British yard had. Many of the continental yards went into factory production (land to expand was much cheaper to aquire and develop) and using numerous agents to sell their boats. They benefitted from economies of scale making their boats cheaper. The final nail in the coffin was an exchange rate that was making continental boats even cheaper. That is why we now have virtually no major yards building yachts in bulk.

The reality is that Westerly went broke 3 times (at least) because their costs were too high and they encountered serious competition from much more attractive propositions. That is the way markets work. While they had a sort of captive market in the UK their export sales were minimal and in a global (or at least European) market you cannot exist if you only operate in one section of it - at least if you want volume. This is of course not unique to the boat building market. The UK is not a good place for "traditional" manufacturing.

One of the myths is that "hand made" and "traditional methods" are superior - they are not at this level, or indeed now at any level. all builders now use a significant amount of machine made interiors, not just to save costs but to improve quality. i don't know if you ever went into the old style building sheds such as Westerly used to work from, but I worked for a boat builder at that time was horrified by what I saw, not only in inefficiencies but lack of basic understanding of production methods.

They (and all the other builders who gave up) failed because their products were unattractive to paying customers. That is why we have no volume builder in the UK - and have not had for nearly 30 years.

 

[bitbaltic]

rejoining after a couple of days ye gods this thread has become a challenging read. Especially the MAB/AWB thing rehearsed for over a decade here with no fundamentally different observations.

the suggestion of a seastream: amazing boats and if I was buying for my wife’s choice I know one of those (bigger ones better) would tick every box, every time.

Me, I’d be looking for a luffe 40.04 (described by my wife as ‘what we already have but bigger and worse’) but that’s out of the 50k budget anyhow.

I think the OP needs to sail some of these boats. I think sense still comes down to a well presented AWB in the 30 something foot category and forgetting about the boat whilst enjoying the cruising.

 

[Kukri]

The reality is that Westerly went broke 3 times (at least) because their costs were too high and they encountered serious competition from much more attractive propositions. That is the way markets work. While they had a sort of captive market in the UK their export sales were minimal and in a global (or at least European) market you cannot exist if you only operate in one section of it - at least if you want volume. This is of course not unique to the boat building market. The UK is not a good place for "traditional" manufacturing.

One of the myths is that "hand made" and "traditional methods" are superior - they are not at this level, or indeed now at any level. all builders now use a significant amount of machine made interiors, not just to save costs but to improve quality. i don't know if you ever went into the old style building sheds such as Westerly used to work from, but I worked for a boat builder at that time was horrified by what I saw, not only in inefficiencies but lack of basic understanding of production methods.

They (and all the other builders who gave up) failed because their products were unattractive to paying customers. That is why we have no volume builder in the UK - and have not had for nearly 30 years.

I agree entirely. But it’s a national problem that runs very deep. We might start with William Morris and the Arts and Crafts Movement.

A point sometimes made is that Henry Ford and Henry Royce both achieved the same levels of accuracy in mechanical engineering, but they did different things with it. Ford wanted his workmen to pick any part out of a parts bin, knowing they were identical, whilst Royce wanted to achieve unparalleled levels of reliability in small volume production. As we all know, Packard found that they had to re-design the Merlin aero engine to fit it for mass production and to bring the man hours per engine down to something sensible.

I had a hand in a 42,000 ton bulk carrier built at Mitsui in Japan in 1981 - 420,000 man hours, rather conservative design - and another 45,000 tonner in Sunderland in 1984 - 840,000 man hours, in a far better equipped facility, (with a more advanced design, but...). Sunderland had been building ships since soon after Noah; they had learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

Fifteen years later I was “parachuted into” a Sino-Japanese joint venture shipbuilding yard in Nantong in China because the Chinese and the Japanese were not talking to each other but they would both talk to a Brit; our man hours for our first three 51,000 ton bulk carriers were 780,000, 450,000, 310,000 and eventually 220,000.

 

[Mudisox]

Don't write off two hulls, especially if you want to keep your partner onboard. Comfort and safe if you have an open mind.

 

[Kukri]

Don't write off two hulls, especially if you want to keep your partner onboard. Comfort and safe if you have an open mind.

Cue the next ten pages...?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Yawn, yawn, yawn.

Descended into the predictable MAB vs AWB drivel.