Rethinking the laser pointer as a distress signal or flare

Adios

...
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
2,390
Visit site
I have a MK3 Odeo LED Flare but I consider it for "homing in on me" use rather than a "raising alarm" item. When single handed or at night I carry the LED flare and a DSC handheld VHF but I liked the pocket size and the belt and braces idea of having a laser flare as well so I looked at what info was out there.

The older Odeo laser flare was tested by PBO and pretty unimpressive; "it twinkled like a star" at only 3 miles.


This is about the same range as the later MK3 LED version I have. Even with the fan shaped beam they dismissed the Greatland Laser Flare as being "too directional to be of use on a boat" when PBO tested that. LED and laser flares tested - Practical Boat Owner

But the Greatland laser flares have been unchanged in more than a decade and much more powerful lasers are available now, could any be more useful for actually attracting attention?

Inherently required in a device for raising alarm is that it must distract someone who isn't looking for you. The commonly used marketing phrase "can be seen up to" x number of miles is relying on a pilot or watch on a ship looking where you are at just the right moment to see a faintly twinkling light in the distance. That isn't good enough.

As lasers have proved a menace to aviation when in the wrong hands there is quite a lot of information out there. This image is supposed to show "flashblinding" level of light but you get the idea. Turning a cockpit window green will be noticed and reported. If it happens over the sea alarm bells should ring.

laserlight.jpg

This graphic shows the different amount of glare at different distances. We'd want something that causes at least distraction but no more. A 5mW laser is only capable of distraction to 2 miles and that's a green laser which is considerably more visible than red lasers of the same power. The fanning of the light with a lens must also reduce the 5mW Greatland laser's power.

laser-pointer_hazard-distances_nightscene_1019x800.jpg

There's no point using something that can only just do its job. So what power would be ideal? Eye damage isn't an issue at distances over 160m even with a 500mW light, likewise nor is causing flashblindness as long as over half a mile away, even causing a disrupting glare isn't a problem over 2.3 miles, half the distance to a ship on the horizon. But it will provide a distraction for a plane at 40,000ft off at a distance, as low as 20 degrees from the horizon.

laser-pointer-hazard-distances-table-large.jpg
This was an interesting clip, especially talk of the difference between red and green. Of course a helicopter could be as little as 100m away and close enough to cause eye damage so isn't the intended use. But even then some of the talk on this issue does seem somewhat exaggerated when compared to the facts in the table above, over a certain distance a laser is just a small bright light incapable of causing eye damage. But the video shows the way it would light up a window and bounce around a ships bridge. Should be impossible even for the most half awake watch to miss. And as they say it makes homing in on the person very easy.


On the issue of aiming, a 3mm wide beam with a typical divergence of 1 milliradian will be 100 meters in diameter at 20 miles. Here is the best demonstration I could find of a powerful 400mW laser. Of course video can never be more bright than your screen so we're not seeing a realistic picture but what it does show is that even at that distance once he has something to aim at its not that hard to hit the target. The visible beam heading out will help to aim and the increasing width of the beam will mean it doesn't get much harder the further the target is. As both beams show the visible beam itself is a powerful signal on a bigger laser while the small 5mW lights are a much less visible fine beam, probably barely any use. For homing in purposes pointing the beam straight up well away from approaching rescuers seems like another useful function.


In terms of personal safety the 500mW laser can cause skin damage and set fire to things but is far less risky than setting off a pyrotechnic flare. I also wouldn't look directly into the light of a pyrotechnic. Some lasers are available with a key to lock the switch making them more child safe but of course not what we want for emergency situations. Some have a button which could be pressed in the pocket but others are twist base which would be better for us.

I looked into the legal side of pointing lasers at planes and found since 2012 in the USA the law allows an exception for use in an emergency. Interestingly some states specify "using a laser emergency signalling device to send an emergency distress signal" while others say "using a laser pointing device AS and an emergency signalling device" But still the point is clear that lasers are a legitimate means of signalling distress. Some countries ban owning them, Aus, NZ, Canada, maybe others. But at least in the UK they are legal to own for responsible use.

I'd be interested to hear others views on this but I'm quite tempted by the idea. 500mW, with a twist base. Powered by a 18650 lithium rechargeable to keep it compact. Will need to find one that is waterproof but they seem to be available and at half the cost of the Greatland Laser Flare.
 
Last edited:
What are your chances of pointing your 1 milliradian beam in the right direction, while stood on a moving boat?
 
Interesting article.

My problem is not pointing a laser at a target that seems straightforward - as long at you can see the target. Not good in bad weather or at night.

My worry is not you seeing a target and using a laser to guide them (a rescuer) to you but for a rescuer to observe a light, understand what it is and what it means and act on it accordingly.

Ink
 
What are your chances of pointing your 1 milliradian beam in the right direction, while stood on a moving boat?
3 milliradian lasers are available which would help though would reduce the effective range presumably. Of course it will be hit and miss but you only need to hit it a few times if the effect is strong enough. Could be pretty damn frustrating depending on how rough it is but with a clear beam to look down towards the target I expect it would be possible to hit it eventually as it flys around in the rough direction. As stated I'm thinking of this as possibly something to add to the arsenal not as the only means.

I watched Robert Redford's All Is Lost as it popped up on Amazon Prime the other day. Bit boring, seemed like a 2 hour long advert for owning a handheld VHF, so I flicked through it. But I can imagine the scenario where a ship on autopilot passes nearby and doesn't see your last remaining few seconds of flare. Lighting up the whole bridge interior or crews quarters with green flashes would seem more likely to work. Lighting the clouds up with a light sabre beam also quite likely with no issues of aiming.
 
Apologies for the thread drift but I was recently considering flares/lazers and the like . Now that LEDs and batteries are so light what size of tethered hydrogen balloon would be required to carry a small led all round light up 100 feet or so above your vessel? just to extend the distance that your light is visible from. I'm thinking of an emergency pack with light, balloon, gas and line. Yes I know ...... lockdown has got to me!!
 
Interesting article.

My problem is not pointing a laser at a target that seems straightforward - as long at you can see the target. Not good in bad weather or at night.
Planes are very nice targets at night with their strobes to aim for.

My worry is not you seeing a target and using a laser to guide them (a rescuer) to you but for a rescuer to observe a light, understand what it is and what it means and act on it accordingly.
That's the beauty of the furore over people shining lasers at planes. All pilots will be aware of the issue and know what it is when it happens. They will I guess report it to the authorities immediately giving their location and the approximate direction the laser is coming from, if that is at sea I expect 2+2 will add up pretty easily. A bit less sure of the result if aiming at a ship but i think its unlikely to be ignored if it is strong enough. Aiming at a seaside town probably not so likely to work.
 
Apologies for the thread drift but I was recently considering flares/lazers and the like . Now that LEDs and batteries are so light what size of tethered hydrogen balloon would be required to carry a small led all round light up 100 feet or so above your vessel? just to extend the distance that your light is visible from. I'm thinking of an emergency pack with light, balloon, gas and line. Yes I know ...... lockdown has got to me!!
Not a completely deranged idea! All round LED lights flashing SOS can be bought on Amazon for roadside use. I can't see a weight but they are 10cm x 3.5cm, I doubt it would be less than 100g inc battery


LED Road Flare, Emergency Disc Beacon with 9 Flash Modes, Magnetic Base & Hook Storage Bag Roadside Flashing Warning Light...

I'd go with the less volatile helium gas and according to this Helium Balloons Calculator you'd need 96 litres of uncompressed helium to lift it which would fill one 24" diameter balloon. For a boat carried item, in a grab bag, seems easily possible. But for a personal carry item it will depend on how much the small canisters can hold and a having a compact system for delivering it into the balloon. Not dissimilar to an auto-inflating life jacket, with a slower delivery of gas to allow for a less strong balloon or you'll start needing more gas for a heavier balloon.
 
The OP is looking at the problem of signalling to a plane or ship using a fine beam laser. Whilst that does concentrate the light energy into a small area and thus extend its range, all of the data quoted is for clear skies and good visibility. Available lasers are all adversely affected by poor visibility, flying spray and the like which markedly reduces the likely ranges you can achieve with them. Because of the small beam diameter, they also don’t produce much in the way of scatter which can be seen by an observer positioned outside of the beam.
I think that one of the reasons why there aren’t a plethora of laser rescue beacons/markers is because of just these problems. Lasers simply aren’t as observable as pyrotechnics. I carry an Odeo for use as a last quarter mile marker but it‘s part of a set of options for summoning help: PLB, AIS MOB, DSC radio, hand held flares, hand held smoke and parachute flares. Don’t see much point in adding to this, especially as just about anyone seeing a laser wouldn’t know what it was.
As to a ballon to loft a beacon, that’d be absolutely fine a flat calm. Anything much more than a gentle breeze will see the ballon loose altitude as the wind pushes it downwind, unless you’re thinking of a ballon with a lot of positive buoyancy to overcome the wind. That’d in turn produce problems in storing the gas and inflating the ballon, when you probably be better employed looking after yourself. Final thought: what’s the cloud base likely to be in poor weather which is when you’re more likely to actually have to resort to these sort of things? Little point in putting a ballon up if the visibility at say 100m is impaired, you’d probably get better results from something at sea levelish.
 
Last edited:
The OP is looking at the problem of signalling to a plane or ship using a fine beam laser. Whilst that does concentrate the light energy into a small area and thus extend its range, all of the data quoted is for clear skies and good visibility. Available lasers are all adversely affected by poor visibility, flying spray and the like which markedly reduces the likely ranges you can achieve with them. Because of the small beam diameter, they also don’t produce much in the way of scatter which can be seen by an observer positioned outside of the beam.
That's quite contradictory. Where cloud or spray is reducing its range it is producing a visible beam to observers off to the side and is creating a wider scattered point of light to the observer aimed at. That is clear in the 9km demonstration video above. Yes the range will be reduced which is why I wouldn't suggest getting on that can only just about do it.

No method will be ideal in all scenarios though but night at sea especially in winter can be incredibly clear compared to over the land.

I think that one of the reasons why there aren’t a plethora of laser rescue beacons/markers is because of just these problems. Lasers simply aren’t as observable as pyrotechnics.
They weren't before when the first ones came out but with the price of more powerful lasers coming down I wonder if they are worth looking at again.

I carry an Odeo for use as a last quarter mile marker but it‘s part of a set of options for summoning help: PLB, AIS MOB, DSC radio, hand held flares, hand held smoke and parachute flares. Don’t see much point in adding to this,
If you have all the satellite range goodies and are happy to strap pyrotechnics to yourself this might not be for you. But at £50 for something so small you wouldn't notice carrying it with a possible range to raise an alarm of 20 miles it still seems worth thinking about for the budget sailor

especially as just about anyone seeing a laser wouldn’t know what it was.
Answered above but also they are quite widely used. So much that their use is written into law. Any professional skipper or pilot wouldn't ignore an erratic flashing light coming from the sea.

The negatives i'm finding are entirely people on land pointing at rescue helicopters and delaying or stopping the rescues. Rescue | Laser Pointer Safety - News of aviation-related incidents, arrests, etc. Makes me wonder how they knew it wasn't the casualty signalling for help. Still perhaps not one to use for land based rescue but you'd think they wouldn't mistake a signal coming from the water as an idiots Christmas present. The one example of use by the casualty in the water was where it saved him.
 
Not a completely deranged idea! All round LED lights flashing SOS can be bought on Amazon for roadside use. I can't see a weight but they are 10cm x 3.5cm, I doubt it would be less than 100g inc battery


LED Road Flare, Emergency Disc Beacon with 9 Flash Modes, Magnetic Base & Hook Storage Bag Roadside Flashing Warning Light...

I'd go with the less volatile helium gas and according to this Helium Balloons Calculator you'd need 96 litres of uncompressed helium to lift it which would fill one 24" diameter balloon. For a boat carried item, in a grab bag, seems easily possible. But for a personal carry item it will depend on how much the small canisters can hold and a having a compact system for delivering it into the balloon. Not dissimilar to an auto-inflating life jacket, with a slower delivery of gas to allow for a less strong balloon or you'll start needing more gas for a heavier balloon.
In fact we have one of those on the boat, I think ours would be a bit heavy for a balloon though we would certainly haul it aloft if needs be in an emergency as the light is very very bright.
 
In fact we have one of those on the boat, I think ours would be a bit heavy for a balloon though we would certainly haul it aloft if needs be in an emergency as the light is very very bright.
the more methods the better isn't it, holding up a Odeo LED flare will get tiring very quickly but i might not want to haul it up the mast in case i need to take it with me.
 
What are your chances of pointing your 1 milliradian beam in the right direction, while stood on a moving boat?
I have used pyrotechnic flares and laser flares. The first surprise with the pyrotechnic is the huge explosion right next to your ear, so be prepared. I have more than one type of pyrotechnic flare. They don’t have the same instructions. My first task would be to find a pair of reading glasses and a torch. Next would be to figure out which way is up. I used the laser flare to show a very fast moving cruise ship that he was on direct collision course with me. So of course I had a clear target to aim at – the ship one mile away and closing rapidly. It changed course. I assume the bridge saw my signal. Sending up a red flare would not have been appropriate and I didn’t want to be standing on the back of my boat holding the fire from a white flare. With some designs you have to pull the cap off the business end. And then what? Hope the burn doesn’t start instantaneously!! The US Coast Guard report that more American sailors are injured setting off flares than are rescued after setting off flares.
 
I have used pyrotechnic flares and laser flares. The first surprise with the pyrotechnic is the huge explosion right next to your ear, so be prepared. I have more than one type of pyrotechnic flare. They don’t have the same instructions. My first task would be to find a pair of reading glasses and a torch. Next would be to figure out which way is up. I used the laser flare to show a very fast moving cruise ship that he was on direct collision course with me. So of course I had a clear target to aim at – the ship one mile away and closing rapidly. It changed course. I assume the bridge saw my signal. Sending up a red flare would not have been appropriate and I didn’t want to be standing on the back of my boat holding the fire from a white flare. With some designs you have to pull the cap off the business end. And then what? Hope the burn doesn’t start instantaneously!! The US Coast Guard report that more American sailors are injured setting off flares than are rescued after setting off flares.
Fair comment.
One mile away, I'd use my 75W 12V spot light.

Shining it on the sails is very effective. If we're using white sails....
 
Fair comment.
One mile away, I'd use my 75W 12V spot light.

Shining it on the sails is very effective. If we're using white sails....
Was off Cadiz two years ago, 2.00 am ish. under sail heading towards Faro. Wife saw a red and green coming at us, slowly. Gave me a shout. Nothing on AIS. It was a big freighter. I got the "steamer scarer" one of those lead acid rechargeables with a 35 watt bulb? Shone it up and down his bridge, all of a sudden his AIS came on and he turned away. I gave him a call on 16, he swore his AIS had been on all along. It said "not under command" apparently they were waiting for a pilot to go in to Cadiz refinery and were mooching. The point Im making, my steamer scarer worked.
 
Shine a laser pointer at any aircraft here and (are caught) you will almost certainly be going to jail.

I don’t know how they’d view it in a distress scenario but I wouldn’t want to find out.

W
 
Apologies for the thread drift but I was recently considering flares/lazers and the like . Now that LEDs and batteries are so light what size of tethered hydrogen balloon would be required to carry a small led all round light up 100 feet or so above your vessel? just to extend the distance that your light is visible from. I'm thinking of an emergency pack with light, balloon, gas and line. Yes I know ...... lockdown has got to me!!
The thought is good but the wind resistance caused by the size of balloon required would have it trailing back down wind, you might do better flying it on a kite.

I bought a Lazer flare some years back as I thought it was better value than buying flares and throwing them away!
It hasn't gone unused, it is ideal for reading a difficult to read fuel sight guage.
 
As yet there is not anything as instantly recognisable as a rocket or hand flare. For hand flares, a really bright spotlight with maybe a 20 degree beam and a red filter could be a safer, longer lasting alternative, assuming the user could point it roughly at the ship/helicopter/aircraft. Nothing though replaces the "fire and forget" rocket flare.

Not that it guarantees a response - I once fired a series in a very real Mayday situation (badly injured crew) in clear sight of more than one small ships. They steamed on, probably on autopilot.
 
Shine a laser pointer at any aircraft here and (are caught) you will almost certainly be going to jail.

I don’t know how they’d view it in a distress scenario but I wouldn’t want to find out.

W
up to 1/4 million dollar fine and 5 years in prison for doing it as a joke. Doing it as a distress signal perfectly legal and written into US federal law as mentioned in the first post. Its only really a problem for planes on final approach coming in to land. Planes at high altitude over the coast will be on autopilot and far enough that its not at all blinding.
 
Shine a laser pointer at any aircraft here and (are caught) you will almost certainly be going to jail.

I don’t know how they’d view it in a distress scenario but I wouldn’t want to find out.

W
In an emergency, I'd take my chance. I'd prefer Sing Sing to glub glub

The LED beacon I carry in my car weighs 156g. It wouldn't float, but it's an insignificant weight to have in a pocket. It came from Aldidl, and I think I may get one for my oilie pocket next time they've got them.
 
In an emergency, I'd take my chance. I'd prefer Sing Sing to glub glub

The LED beacon I carry in my car weighs 156g. It wouldn't float, but it's an insignificant weight to have in a pocket. It came from Aldidl, and I think I may get one for my oilie pocket next time they've got them.
Aldidl is my favourite non chandler chandlery but I didnt know they did LED beacons. I'll be back in there after I've been vaccinated
 
Top