Response from Chloe Smith (Red Diesel)

[Sybarite]

Actually it will soon make sense to fill up in France. Diesel is a lot cheaper there.

Even more so because François Hollande has said that if he is elected he's going to bring prices down...

PS You get checked in France and you have traces of red, you show them your French receipts.

 

[chewi]

The point I think you have missed is this. White diesel denotes tax paid. I do not believe it will ever be allowed to have rebates made. The whole control over diesel duty is based round this basic principle: Red = Free, White = Duty. Allow a rebate like this and all the villains in the south of England would be out. Enforcement costs would rocket, as there would now be a possibility of white with rebates being used as road fuel. If we were all honest it would work, but we are not!

Did Sybarite mention rebates?

As I understand it white does not mean tax paid, but red means reduced tax paid.

Apart from the need to flush the tanks & invest in the dye metering I'm not sure I see a problem to that suggestion of dye at point of sale.

It's better than the Chloe Smith MP idea.

 

[maxi77]

How practical would it be for a group of yachties to get together from time to time to order a tanker to come down to the marina with white fuel and fill up everyone who needs it?

Normally for heating fuel they will come and deliver to your house from a minimum quantity of 500 litres.

So if the same applies for white fuel you only need a couple of you to get together each time.

Most of the big fuel/oil companies who do heating oil will deliver diesel in 200 litre drums,get a quote.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Did Sybarite mention rebates?

As I understand it white does not mean tax paid, but red means reduced tax paid.

Apart from the need to flush the tanks & invest in the dye metering I'm not sure I see a problem to that suggestion of dye at point of sale.

It's better than the Chloe Smith MP idea.

Actually I missed his point!- the bit where they adulterate the diesel with Red if rebated. Problem may be that duty is paid on all white delivered. So the station would have to keep records to say what rebates had been given. The pumps would have to have a completely tamper proof meter for each type of delivery, in order for it to work. Customs audits would have to go up.

 

[st599]

Actually I missed his point!- the bit where they adulterate the diesel with Red if rebated. Problem may be that duty is paid on all white delivered. So the station would have to keep records to say what rebates had been given. The pumps would have to have a completely tamper proof meter for each type of delivery, in order for it to work. Customs audits would have to go up.

I bet the dye has to be added in a customs bonded location.

 

[maby]

...
Apart from the need to flush the tanks & invest in the dye metering I'm not sure I see a problem to that suggestion of dye at point of sale.

....

The EU does - dye must be added under bonded conditions.

 

[PaulGooch]

The EU does - dye must be added under bonded conditions.

Plus, we can't rebate white diesel.

 

[wizard]

Actually it will soon make sense to fill up in France. Diesel is a lot cheaper there.

Even more so because François Hollande has said that if he is elected he's going to bring prices down...

PS You get checked in France and you have traces of red, you show them your French receipts.

So, out of interest what is the general cost of diesel in France?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Most of the big fuel/oil companies who do heating oil will deliver diesel in 200 litre drums,get a quote.

So how can I get this drum to the boat? Plus it still does not solve the fact that there is no white diesel blended without FAME.

I really think that the only option is that the marinas and outlets agree who will supply Red and White, and get on with it. In the mean time the Government HAS to force the blenders to supply FAME free white diesel for marine use

 

[Grumpybear]

So how can I get this drum to the boat? Plus it still does not solve the fact that there is no white diesel blended without FAME.

I really think that the only option is that the marinas and outlets agree who will supply Red and White, and get on with it. In the mean time the Government HAS to force the blenders to supply FAME free white diesel for marine use

in an ideal world, yes. but what incentive do either the politicians or their bureaucrats have to initiate legislation on what, to probably 90% of the electorate, is a complete irrelevance?

our self appointed representatives, the RYA, and the marine industry have, as repeatedly pointed out on this and other threads, for short term gain (the only viewpoint understood by British industry nowadays) persuaded the government not to get on with enacting legislation which complies with EC directives. We, the leisure boaters, have generally gone along with this to save a few quid. Now the music has stopped and we have to take the consequences.

If we want cheaper fuel, then we and others have to lobby through our MPs and directly for a significant change in fiscal policy (which means thinking about how we would prefer the lost revenue to be made up). Cheaper fuel In this context must mean road fuel, not just marine leisure fuel.

If we want to continue in the same style of boat use and with the same engines, we also need to pressurise our marinas and fuel suppliers to provide FAME free white diesel, and be grown up enough to accept the cost associated with what in the oils industry's perspective is a niche product.

I am saddened by the number of Otherwise intelligent forumites who seem to espouse the contradictory positions that boating is about freedom and self reliance, and that the nanny state has a duty to facilitate our pursuit of our often expensive hobby. Non boaters do not give a single damn whether any of us are forced to give up boating by what is a pretty marginal increase in our costs. Most marina users would save far more than the extra cost of buying FAME free white by shifting to a swinging mooring. convenience versus cost: just how committed are we?

All this at a time when western society as a whole is in denial about being in that Wile E Coyote moment after running off the edge of the cliff.

wake up and smell the coffee (and the napalm)!

reviewing this rant, I am depressed that so many people have already said the same thing, but been roundly ignored by others who just don't want to face reality.

 

[maby]

in...
reviewing this rant, I am depressed that so many people have already said the same thing, but been roundly ignored by others who just don't want to face reality.

 

[Chris_Robb]

in an ideal world, yes. but what incentive do either the politicians or their bureaucrats have to initiate legislation on what, to probably 90% of the electorate, is a complete irrelevance?

our self appointed representatives, the RYA, and the marine industry have, as repeatedly pointed out on this and other threads, for short term gain (the only viewpoint understood by British industry nowadays) persuaded the government not to get on with enacting legislation which complies with EC directives. We, the leisure boaters, have generally gone along with this to save a few quid. Now the music has stopped and we have to take the consequences.

If we want cheaper fuel, then we and others have to lobby through our MPs and directly for a significant change in fiscal policy (which means thinking about how we would prefer the lost revenue to be made up). Cheaper fuel In this context must mean road fuel, not just marine leisure fuel.

If we want to continue in the same style of boat use and with the same engines, we also need to pressurise our marinas and fuel suppliers to provide FAME free white diesel, and be grown up enough to accept the cost associated with what in the oils industry's perspective is a niche product.

I am saddened by the number of Otherwise intelligent forumites who seem to espouse the contradictory positions that boating is about freedom and self reliance, and that the nanny state has a duty to facilitate our pursuit of our often expensive hobby. Non boaters do not give a single damn whether any of us are forced to give up boating by what is a pretty marginal increase in our costs. Most marina users would save far more than the extra cost of buying FAME free white by shifting to a swinging mooring. convenience versus cost: just how committed are we?

All this at a time when western society as a whole is in denial about being in that Wile E Coyote moment after running off the edge of the cliff.

wake up and smell the coffee (and the napalm)!

reviewing this rant, I am depressed that so many people have already said the same thing, but been roundly ignored by others who just don't want to face reality.

A wile E Coyote moment - not heard it described as this - but yes thats exactly where we are, and its not funny.

The regs at the moment stipulate that Marine fuel must be free of FAME, so any supplier who starts supplying a "marine" outlet must comply anyway. So perhaps this bit won't be the problem.

Agreed that most of the population couldn't give a damn, so we now need the likes of the RYA to sort it once and for all. I'll have mine white please....

 

[maby]

in an ideal world, yes. but what incentive do either the politicians or their bureaucrats have to initiate legislation on what, to probably 90% of the electorate, is a complete irrelevance?

....

The government does not have the power to force anyone to sell anything. Thay can ban the sale of some things - they could, and should, ban marinas from selling red to leisure sailors - that would then pressure marinas to switch to white diesel or risk losing their residents who are simply forced to give up sailing if they cannot buy legal fuel.

 

[maby]

A ...

The regs at the moment stipulate that Marine fuel must be free of FAME, so any supplier who starts supplying a "marine" outlet must comply anyway. So perhaps this bit won't be the problem.

....

I don't think there are any such regulations - just a claim that road diesel is not really suitable for marine use. There is very little evidence to support this claim which seems to have been started as extra ammunition to retain the supply of red diesel. Many sailors on the continent have no option other than white road diesel - if changes to the formulation begin to cause serious problems in boat fuel systems, new additives will soon become available to resolve them - the issues ae related to increased risk of diesel bug due to the reaction of water with the FAME and new bug treatments will be created if necessary.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I don't think there are any such regulations - just a claim that road diesel is not really suitable for marine use. There is very little evidence to support this claim which seems to have been started as extra ammunition to retain the supply of red diesel. Many sailors on the continent have no option other than white road diesel - if changes to the formulation begin to cause serious problems in boat fuel systems, new additives will soon become available to resolve them - the issues ae related to increased risk of diesel bug due to the reaction of water with the FAME and new bug treatments will be created if necessary.

I believe that there are regulations re FAME and marine diesel, and I also think that you are wrong that the problems of fame are exaggerated. Just ring up WP Fuels in Fawley who supply Premier, which I did the other day to see if is a real problem.

On the continent most places (but not Germany, Greece) supply Fame free white diesel - someone earlier researched this and published it on one of the many Red Diesel threads.

 

[awol]

The regs at the moment stipulate that Marine fuel must be free of FAME, so any supplier who starts supplying a "marine" outlet must comply anyway. So perhaps this bit won't be the problem.

No, AIUI they stipulate that BS ISO 8217:2010 fuel must be free of FAME and they allow that fuel to be supplied to sea-going vessels. That grade of fuel is likely to be always available as it is used elsewhere in engines like hospital stand-by generators where the degradation over time properties of FAME would be unwelcome. What you are after is a full-duty white version of BS ISO 8217:2010 - something that organisations like the BMF and RYA should be discussing with the refineries and suppliers.

 

[PaulGooch]

I don't think there are any such regulations

Chris doesn't seem to let a few facts get in the way of his statements

 

[Koeketiene]

I also think that you are wrong that the problems of fame are exaggerated. Just ring up WP Fuels in Fawley who supply Premier, which I did the other day to see if is a real problem.

Could you please expand on this please?
Surely we can't all be expected to call WP Fuels - and I'm sure they've got better things to do too.

 

[Sybarite]

So, out of interest what is the general cost of diesel in France?

Today's prices in supermarkets in Cherbourg are about €1.42/litre; it would probably be about 15% more expensive in a marina.

However the great thing is that you would have a French receipt for the fuel in your tanks in case of control.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Chris doesn't seem to let a few facts get in the way of his statements

Paul - see post 176 - Awol has found the standards that relate. So its up to us to pressure marinas blenders etc to supply this fuel. This should be done by the RYA etc, but from their last statement they seemed to be happy with the chronic status quo. Facts - get in the way!!!!