AuntyRinum
Well-Known Member
You are confusing tax avoidance with tax evasion. One is illegal, the other is not.
Response from Chloe Smith (Red Diesel)
- Thread starter Elemental
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maby
Well-Known Member
I am certainly not confusing them, I'm very relaxed about both provided they do not impact upon me - which the misuse of red diesel is beginning to do.
Beadle
Well-Known Member
"Ireland also permits pleasure sailors to purchase marked diesel - for the same reason as we do - it would have been difficult to convince enough marinas and ports to offer unmarked fuel. The commission is not putting a lot of pressure on Ireland - why? Because there is no equivalent of the 60/40 split in Ireland - you pay the full rate of duty on all the fuel you buy."
Err
This is directly opposite to what I was told earlier in this thread.
The view then was that tax had nothing whatsoever to do with the attitude to UK boats.
It was purely because our diesel was coloured.
Now having read in a recent post that the EU is taking a different, more tolerent of Irish boats' green diesel because they do not have a 60/40 split I am now at a loss to understand what the true position is.
Even those who support the Belgian position seem completely unable to give a clear reason why our diesel is illegal and why we are likely to be fined.
The only reason that has been consistent is the one I gave originally - that it is simply an act of malice.
Err
This is directly opposite to what I was told earlier in this thread.
The view then was that tax had nothing whatsoever to do with the attitude to UK boats.
It was purely because our diesel was coloured.
Now having read in a recent post that the EU is taking a different, more tolerent of Irish boats' green diesel because they do not have a 60/40 split I am now at a loss to understand what the true position is.
Even those who support the Belgian position seem completely unable to give a clear reason why our diesel is illegal and why we are likely to be fined.
The only reason that has been consistent is the one I gave originally - that it is simply an act of malice.
maby
Well-Known Member
Of course charter companies and sailing schools quite legally purchase their boats as company assets! Our request to our accountant was to give the boat a similar status to a company car - and that caused her some merriment. In her words, there are two ways to ensure that you have a resident tax inspector for several months - claim for a company boat and a company horse!
p.s. we own the company.
maby
Well-Known Member
There's a lot of selective reading of legislation, directives and government actions to support different people's perception of what the situation should be! Here's my assessment of the situation:
1) There is a EU directive that clearly states that commercial boats must be allowed to buy fuel at a substantial discount over standard tax rates and pleasure boats must not be allowed any discount on fuel that is used for propulsion purposes. This one is clear cut and not controversial.
2) There is a directive that clearly states that fuel sold at a discounted tax rate must be marked as such with a dye that is defined to be the red one that we all see in our tanks. This same directive requires that member governments must take all necessary acton to block the improper use of marked fuel in spplications that are not permitted under the various EU directives. The only actual example quoted is the use for propulsion of a road gooing vehicle. The RYA and others leap on this and say that the use in a pleasure boat is not banned - but the EU says that this is being very simplistic since the directive above specifically bans the use of discounted fuel in pleasure vessels and this directive says that discounted fuel must be marked with a dye.
3) The RYA and others quite rightly point out that it is permissible for pleasure boats to burn red diesel in their Webastos and Ebbers. Hence the pressure on the government to permit the infamous 60/40 split. Owners of big mobos suddenly start to claim to be burning so much marked diesel in their heaters and generators that they must be like saunas in the cabin and rather than drawing electricity via shore power, they are driving the national grid.
4) Ireland is the only other country still permitting their leisure sailors to purchase marked fuel. They are not being hunted down by the commission in the same way as we are. They do not permit a 60/40 split - leisure sailors are expected to pay for their fuel at the same rate as cars.
5) As others have pointed out, EU directives are not laws and cannot be enforced on the publiic. They are instructions to member governments to enact laws that enforce the intent of the directive. Countries other than the UK have interpreted the two directives described above as saying that it is illegal for us to have red diesel in our tanks. The commission is currently inclined to agree with this interpretation - but levels of taxation are at the core of the argument.
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Beadle
Well-Known Member
"There is a directive that clearly states that fuel sold at a discounted tax rate must be marked as such with a dye that is defined to be the red one that we all see in our tanks."
So if we change to green dye the problem goes away?
Is this your opinion.?
Or your interpretation of the legislation?
Or a direct quote from the legislation?
So if we change to green dye the problem goes away?
Is this your opinion.?
Or your interpretation of the legislation?
Or a direct quote from the legislation?
maby
Well-Known Member
The directive defines which dye should be used to indicate the tax reduced status of the fuel (though Ireland is not currently complying). It also says that individual member states are free to add other dyes for their internal purposes, but that any tax reduction must be marked with the standard red dye. These are, to the best of my ability, accurate summaries of the directives which I have now read from end to end. If you can maintain the will to live, they are freely available for your inspection on the net.
Lots of people have tried to come up with ways round this, but you really need to understand the arcane way in which the EU works. Their directives are not laws - they are expressions of intent which each member government is required to turn into laws. When the commission is unhappy with an individual member government's actions to implement a directive, they take the country to court in the European Court of Justice. The intent of the various directives on fuel taxation and marking is that all governments will implement certain minimum levels of taxation on fuel and these levels will be based on the usage of that fuel. In order to stop the population of one country from nipping across the border and dodging tax by buying their fuel under a different juristiction, all tax reduced fuel must be marked using an agreed red dye. The fuel taxation directives do explicitly forbid the sale of tax reduced fuel to pleasure boats for propulsion. Beyond all the above, you get into the realms of legal argument about the specific meaning of words. The EU Court may eventually make a ruling that requires our government to stop us buying red diesel. Our current problem is that Belgium is actively prosecuting us for having it and other countries have expressed the opinion that we are breaking the law by having it, though they are not currently penalising us for it. The UK position certainly seems to be in conflict with the directives while the Belgian, French, Dutch and German position is compliant. if you take your red diesel into their ports and get a fine, you do not have much of a leg to stand on.
GlennG
Well-Known Member
I've not missed the point, I was answering a point about tax splits.
I want to be able to buy white diesel in a marina for my boat. I am in the position where I can use cans, so for me it's just an inconvenience issue where I will have to walk to a garage to score a couple of bags of diesel.
Alas for most, it's more than an inconvenience, it's completely impractical.
Foreigners must think we're a right bunch of plonkers.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Mrs Maxi worked for a chap whose boat was a company boat, mind you he did use it to entertain business contacts quite extensively and sealed quite a few deals on board.
I do agree though that many would find the won the resident tax inspector if they did do it, and haveing had a mate have this experience it is not that amusing
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
If that is the case, he has a far better accountant than we do - when we asked ours to put the boat as a company asset, she laughed us out of her office!
I was once told that when selecting an accountant, ask where he or she takes holidays. If the reply is Clacton, reject them. If the reply is the Caymans, hire them.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Wondering why commercial marine operators can use cheap fuel, when commercial road operators can't. Seems a bit odd.
westernman
Well-Known Member
How practical would it be for a group of yachties to get together from time to time to order a tanker to come down to the marina with white fuel and fill up everyone who needs it?
Normally for heating fuel they will come and deliver to your house from a minimum quantity of 500 litres.
So if the same applies for white fuel you only need a couple of you to get together each time.
Normally for heating fuel they will come and deliver to your house from a minimum quantity of 500 litres.
So if the same applies for white fuel you only need a couple of you to get together each time.
maby
Well-Known Member
French fishermen - blocade the country at the drop of hat... Spanish are just as bad!
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Yerbut French lorry drivers ain't exactly timid retiring souls.
awol
Well-Known Member
Now you have the answer - civil unrest! There are at least 2 maritime events* that you could blockade to express your solidarity and discontent - and you get an extra day's holiday for one of them. Creating the impression of a viable threat to either might be sufficient to get some action.
It could be, however, that the moans of a privileged minority at this time of austerity will be regarded in the same light as 50% tax dodgers and lead to the rumble of tumbrils and the clack of knitting needles in the streets
* I refer, of course, to the Olympics and the Jubilee bash.
It could be, however, that the moans of a privileged minority at this time of austerity will be regarded in the same light as 50% tax dodgers and lead to the rumble of tumbrils and the clack of knitting needles in the streets
* I refer, of course, to the Olympics and the Jubilee bash.
RAI
Well-Known Member
That is what a lot of Belgium yachtsmen were doing before red became illegal. Now its the Brussels port police and authority boats that get the road tanker down. Doing the same thing with white might be possible, but I suspect the extra tax or duty on white may make it impractical for the supplier to bypass the retailer.
Beadle
Well-Known Member
It would be quite difficult to meter, and usually flows out of a tanker much quicker than it will flow into a boat's tank.
I also suspect there is a whole raft of legislation (both British and EU) that says you can't.
My solution is simply not to visit any EU country. There are plenty of places round the British Isles I have not yet visited and plrnty that I have visited and are worth a second or third trip.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Michael, This would be possible, but there remains the problem that the refineries do not produce White FAME free diesel, so you would have to put in this horrid Bio fuel stuff which WILL cause you problems in the long run. There is an additional hitch; tankers that carry Red, cannot carry white because the red left overs will contaminate the white. Normally in Greece the tankers switch from Red for heating oil over the winter to White for yachts in the summer (full on nourishing Fame). It all depends on how pernikerty the customs will be on traces.
At the end of the day, I really don't want Fame in my tank, although I already have it in Greece for 1 year - but will scavenge the bottom of the tank at the start of the sailing season.
richardm47
Well-Known Member
Simple solution:
Change all fuel berth tanks to white only.
Allow fuel berths to sell diesel tax-reduced but they must dose it with red die as it goes through their pump.
White diesel supplied only to boats that choose to pay full tax.
Very severe penalties for supplying white with reduced or no tax.
Ok that does need some investment to change the pumps so that they can do the dosing. Maybe have 2 separate pumps, one always does the red dosing, and the other always supplies pure white, both drawing from the tank of white.
Its so simple I must have missed something ...... someone tell me what please.
Change all fuel berth tanks to white only.
Allow fuel berths to sell diesel tax-reduced but they must dose it with red die as it goes through their pump.
White diesel supplied only to boats that choose to pay full tax.
Very severe penalties for supplying white with reduced or no tax.
Ok that does need some investment to change the pumps so that they can do the dosing. Maybe have 2 separate pumps, one always does the red dosing, and the other always supplies pure white, both drawing from the tank of white.
Its so simple I must have missed something ...... someone tell me what please.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
The point I think you have missed is this. White diesel denotes tax paid. I do not believe it will ever be allowed to have rebates made. The whole control over diesel duty is based round this basic principle: Red = Free, White = Duty. Allow a rebate like this and all the villains in the south of England would be out. Enforcement costs would rocket, as there would now be a possibility of white with rebates being used as road fuel. If we were all honest it would work, but we are not!
