sailorman
Well-Known Member
If that is the case, he has a far better accountant than we do - when we asked ours to put the boat as a company asset, she laughed us out of her office!
SO you were trying to Evade tax then
Response from Chloe Smith (Red Diesel)
- Thread starter Elemental
- Start date
SO you were trying to Evade tax then
maby
Well-Known Member
SO you were trying to Evade tax then
We'll... My rationale was that our business is software development and we were planning a range of software for leisure sailors, hence we needed a test bed and demonstration platform!
"and the defence rests its case, M'lord!"
Our accountant was strongly of the opinion that HMRC would be all over us like a rash!
sailorman
Well-Known Member
you have strongly suggested in other posts that you were vehemently against tax evasion
maby
Well-Known Member
I don't think I have said any such thing! I regard it as the duty of every loyal citizen to deny all governments as much money as possible. I have pointed out many times that, when you indulge in tax evasion, you must expect it to eventually be blocked. The people that are outraged at the prospect of losing red diesel seem to not understand that they are indulging in tax evasion - complaining that it will add a thousand pounds to your annual running costs is a very poor strategy because it immediately plays into the hands of the EU commission who will ask how it could cost you so much unless you are doing exactly the thing that the red marker is there to prevent!
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Job no 1 for any organisation: secure it's own future.
It is the duty of every citizen to fund government(s), local, national, federal.
Accountability? You're having a larf mr citizen..
Brits being a bit, well, non compliant? Whip em back into line. Ruffle a few brit feathers, hey it wont cost us Belge a sovereign cent to create problems will it?
Hey this great EU machine has to be paid for right? Accountability? That's for you'se all piddling taxes in via your fuel orifices.
Ka-Ching
Commerce will activate a solution and gov will quietly hang on it's coat tails..
It is the duty of every citizen to fund government(s), local, national, federal.
Accountability? You're having a larf mr citizen..
Brits being a bit, well, non compliant? Whip em back into line. Ruffle a few brit feathers, hey it wont cost us Belge a sovereign cent to create problems will it?
Hey this great EU machine has to be paid for right? Accountability? That's for you'se all piddling taxes in via your fuel orifices.
Ka-Ching
Commerce will activate a solution and gov will quietly hang on it's coat tails..
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RobbieH
Well-Known Member
Amount that can be filled in cans?
Some of us (Brits) ARE already there and would like to come to the UK for a months cruise this summer. Unfortunately we have to go back ...
We were planning a "raid" with a variable number of our Belgian firends (Belgians are very friendly when not in possession of a clipboard) using the yacht as a mobile basecamp and visiting the local areas we passed through on bikes. The idea was to make a film promoting British culture - sailing in the Solent, climbing on chalk/trad, Cornish surfing, eating pasties and other local delicacies. That sort of thing.
Unfortunately between the red diesel and the hijacking of Portland for the summer UK really starts to look a bit unattractive (we were going to base out of Portland Marina for a week to go climbing there - it's the biggest centre for sport climbing in UK).
I suppose as a sailing yacht we can probably lug enough cans backwards and forwards (with a few willing helpers) from the petrol station to be OK - the Olympics are a bit of a PITA though. Does anyone know what the limit is on size of cans that can be filled with diesel at a petrol station?
Some of us (Brits) ARE already there and would like to come to the UK for a months cruise this summer. Unfortunately we have to go back ...
We were planning a "raid" with a variable number of our Belgian firends (Belgians are very friendly when not in possession of a clipboard) using the yacht as a mobile basecamp and visiting the local areas we passed through on bikes. The idea was to make a film promoting British culture - sailing in the Solent, climbing on chalk/trad, Cornish surfing, eating pasties and other local delicacies. That sort of thing.
Unfortunately between the red diesel and the hijacking of Portland for the summer UK really starts to look a bit unattractive (we were going to base out of Portland Marina for a week to go climbing there - it's the biggest centre for sport climbing in UK).
I suppose as a sailing yacht we can probably lug enough cans backwards and forwards (with a few willing helpers) from the petrol station to be OK - the Olympics are a bit of a PITA though. Does anyone know what the limit is on size of cans that can be filled with diesel at a petrol station?
Elemental
Well-Known Member
You keep saying this over and over. Repeatedly someone points out that it's just not practical to fill most boats with white as it simply isn't available in useful quantities, yet you ignore them.
Elemental
Well-Known Member
Tax avoidance involved is the use of legal devices to minimise a tax liability and is therefore legal. Tax evasion is illegal. Mobo's, knowingly and falsely declaring that they burn 40% of their diesel for domestic purposes would be illegal. Arranging a corporate asset to minimise tax liability, if done with HMRC approval, would be legal and therefore not evasion
Beadle
Well-Known Member
The position we are in now with the 60/40 business is NOT evasion.
It is LEGAL under British Law.
It may be silly. It may be unpopular in the rest of the EU. It may be all sorts of things but it is NOT evasion.
If I run my boat on parafin mixed with a bit of engine oil which should work ok in a diesel engine It would not be red and it would not be taxed - would it be legal?
It is LEGAL under British Law.
It may be silly. It may be unpopular in the rest of the EU. It may be all sorts of things but it is NOT evasion.
If I run my boat on parafin mixed with a bit of engine oil which should work ok in a diesel engine It would not be red and it would not be taxed - would it be legal?
TrueBlue
Well-Known Member
Yes and no -
Paraffin aka 28sec: heating oil IS taxed already at about 10p / l and provided you complied with the 60/40 rule / provided a justification why not, then strictly speaking (in equity) you would be legal.
The heating oil is marked but not quite the same colour as Red, but could be "mistaken" as Red...
Can I see your point? - are you suggesting a work around, in which case, I'd suggest NO as domestic heating oil can be contaminated with all sorts of stuff - that's where the regrades go.
If it's just a moot point about avoidance, then it fails because of the dye and suitability.
maby
Well-Known Member
The position under current British law is that you should claim the split that you seriously expect to burn - not a blanket 60/40 as almost everyone does. The HMRC had no wish to have to go checking us all and let it be known that they would not ask questions of people that claimed a 60/40 split.
Now, ok - it is semi-officially sanctioned tax evasion, but it is tax evasion to claim the 60/40 knowing that you are going to burn more than 60% of the fuel in the engine. My wife and I are semi-liveaboard and spent most of January and February on our 33 foot yacht - our total fuel consumption for heating was around 100 litres and even claiming 100% heating rebate, we only got a discount of about £45. So, all these mobo owners complaining that a switch to white diesel would cost them hundreds, or even thousands, of pounds are burning rebated fuel in the engine, not in heating or electricity generation. HMRC are not that worried about it, but the EU Commission are - it is tax evasion and that causes them a lot of lost sleep.
Ireland also permits pleasure sailors to purchase marked diesel - for the same reason as we do - it would have been difficult to convince enough marinas and ports to offer unmarked fuel. The commission is not putting a lot of pressure on Ireland - why? Because there is no equivalent of the 60/40 split in Ireland - you pay the full rate of duty on all the fuel you buy.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
SO you were trying to Evade tax then
No. He was trying ( legally) to avoid tax. Not the same thing. You avoid tax when you claim your allowances. You evade it when you earn some cash income and dont tell the HMRC
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
I think you could have taken a % of your boat's costs but to take all would be to defeat your own cause because nobody would believe you.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
I believe its 2 gallons though I dont know the legal status of that restriction. I believe it is no more than an agreement between London fire brigade and BP that has spread elsewhere.
I have on occasion filled a 5 gallon can but that has been under cover of the car boot and out of sight of the kiosk.
Grumpybear
Well-Known Member
notice at our local Sainsburys saying 10 litre metal or 5 litre plastic, referencing a by-law.
lw395
Well-Known Member
If that is the case, he has a far better accountant than we do - when we asked ours to put the boat as a company asset, she laughed us out of her office!
Absolutely nothing to stop you putting the boat into a company.
Unfortunately it is a two-edged sword. Your company allowing you to use it would have to be either charged to you a a profitable rate, or it would be a taxable benefit, which you would have to pay tax and NI on. If the company was not running the boat as a proper business, the costs might not be allowable against corp tax either.
Running your boat as a loss-making charter business with yourself as the sole customer is an evasion scheme that the Church got wise to a few years ago.
Running your boat as a profitable charter business with real customers is absolutely fine.
Quite a few of the superyachts are genuinely for charter.
GlennG
Well-Known Member
No it's not.
The 60/40 split is an administrative pragmatic line in the sand where a boat WITH HEATER can claim 60/40 where reasonable.
Boats with large engines, no heater, or, to be honest, in the summer should not be claiming this rebate.
GlennG
Well-Known Member
As the 'voice of leisure boating' they've really messed this up.
From the RYA website:
It's ironic that we're now faced with a bureaucratic nightmare as a result.
But where will the blazer wearers go?
Maybe it's time for one of the other organisations to step up to the crease, such as the Little Ship Club, Cruising Association, etc.?
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Wrong. The claim for not being charged the duty is for NON PROPULSION purposes. Nothing to say it's for heating, could equally be for charging batteries.
HMRC are not stupid, they know dull well that almost everyone claims the 60/40 split that THEY said they would accept without question, whether they use any for non propulsion or not. The 60/40 split was their way of allowing a lower rate of duty without breaking the directive on the duty. Although doing so breaks the directive with regards to marked fuel.
But, yet again, you miss the point. The current row is not about duty, it's about the use of marked fuel.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
As you say, this is absolutely about marked fuel being misused.
