Response from Chloe Smith (Red Diesel)

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Elemental

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When this debacle first broke, I wrote to Chloe Smith (the MP that signed off the Impact Assessment)

I have posted her response in full.

Thank you for your email of 21 February about changes to legislation covering use of red diesel in private pleasure craft.

I am sorry for the obvious concern this announcement has caused you. First, let me assure you that there is no intention to require boat owners to empty their fuel tanks of red diesel, clean their tanks or for the Government to have any involvement in their decisions to travel to other countries.

This has always been a difficult issue for the UK since losing the derogation from the EU Directive which enabled private pleasure craft owners to use rebated fuel, The UK's status as an island nation with a long coastline means that the issue of fuel supply is more of a Consideration for us than for other Member States. This was the main reason that measures were introduced in 2008 to allow private boat owners to continue to use red diesel, with the requirement that the full rate of duty must be paid on the proportion of fuel used for propulsion. The continued use of red was important because, as you say, there is no supply of ‘white’ diesel at ports and marinas, and to install a second supply stream would be costly for suppliers.

Unfortunately, following a complaint from an individual, the Commission challenged the practice of allowing the use of marked fuel in private boats, saying that it contravened the EU Fiscal Marking Directive, which provides for a common system of fiscal marking for fuel which has not borne full duty. Since the Commission began infringement action, our concern has been to find a solution that benefits the widest range of boating interests. An adverse ruling in the European Courts would mean that the UK would be required to ensure that only White diesel was used in private pleasure craft. Although this outcome might suit those boat owners who travel abroad, the vast majority of boat owners and fuel suppliers would not be in favour of such a solution. In consultation with boating organisations, we have, therefore, decided that the wider interest lies in the retention of the use of red diesel.

Talks between UK officials and the Commission last year resulted in a potential solution which would minimise the risk of an adverse ruling should the Commission proceed with infringement proceedings - and we are now optimistic they will not. The solution is for the UK to limit the use of full duty paid red diesel to UK waters, with users signing a declaration that they were aware they would be subject to the restrictions and prohibitions of other Member States it they entered their waters. This proposal is the basis of the announcement I made to Parliament on 20 February. In addition to securing
the continued use of red diesel for UK boaters, these legal changes will allow most users to continue to benefit from the rebated rate of duty for fuel used for domestic purposes on board their boat.

HMRC published draft legislation on its website on 20 February for consultation until 1st March, after which further changes may be made to ensure that the position is quite clear. The intention is to make it clear to users that the use of red diesel is a UK procedure and other Member States may not allow it in their own waters - rather than to make it illegal to use red diesel outside UK waters. The terms of the legislation and the declaration must meet the Commission‘s concerns as well as making the situation clear for users. It is for this reason that HMRC is consulting on the draft terms, and I am grateful to you for your response. Following the consultation period, further details will be published on HMRC's website (www.hmrc.gov.uk) in a Revenue and Customs Brief before 1 April.

HMRC has continued to involve boating organisations throughout the discussions and they are generally supportive of this measure, seeing it as preferable to the enforced use of White diesel. It is important to emphasise that, in practice, limiting the use of red diesel to UK waters, so making clear that it is a UK procedure, does not change the current position, as pleasure craft travelling to some Member States already run the risk of being fined by their customs authorities. I do understand that, for those boat owners who travel outside UK waters, the difficulty of obtaining supplies of unmarked diesel is a very real problem but this is a commercial issue, and unfortunately not one to which the Government can provide a solution, I do believe, however, that the decisions we have taken represent the best way of protecting the interests of the majority of boat owners, fuel suppliers and others in the leisure boat industry.

I hope this is helpful. Thank you for taking the trouble to make me aware of your concerns.

Chloe Smith
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I do understand that, for those boat owners who travel outside UK waters, the difficulty of obtaining supplies of unmarked diesel is a very real problem but this is a commercial issue, and unfortunately not one to which the Government can provide a solution, I do believe, however, that the decisions we have taken represent the best way of protecting the interests of the majority of boat owners, fuel suppliers and others in the leisure boat industry.
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We scratched our heads for five minutes, couldn't come up with a better solution, so there you go. Those of you "going foreign" are on your own!!
 
"I hope this is helpful. Thank you for taking the trouble to make me aware of your concerns."

Well, no its not actually, and you've done absolutely nothing to assist with the concerns.

What an utter shambles.
 
Sea_Spray said:
..... I have posted her response in full.
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Who ever composed it obviously got fed up about 3/4 of the way through if the sloppy syntax is anything to go by. A bit like the advice.
 
gordmac said:
Seems a reasonable enough response. Why should the majority who don't go abroad be forced to try and find white diesel?
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What is interesting is that the reply actually acknowleges that it isn't really a solution to the problem and admits that they can't fix it.

Not often you get such genuine honesty from a Government minister!:eek:
 
Will the foreign visitors be refused fuel for their return journeys if they won't sign to say they won't use it outside Uk waters? What are they supposed to do, drift home with a letter explaining they couldn't buy enough diesel to get back without also breaking H&S laws at the petrol stations that didn't sell big enough cans?

Or perhaps there won't be any foreign yachts coming?

It's all full of stupid incompetent unreal boxticky reasons why they can't do anything sensible, but in reality it's just that politicians of any flavour can't solve real problems competently. They will outsource anything from transport to police to save money, then find out they didn't know what they actually wanted in the first place, but committed to a deal with some corporate opportunist. If they knew how to run anything they'd cope better with the complications.

I look forward to them proving otherwise, but I won't hold my breath.
 
chewi said:
Will the foreign visitors be refused fuel for their return journeys if they won't sign to say they won't use it outside Uk waters? What are they supposed to do, drift home with a letter explaining they couldn't buy enough diesel to get back without also breaking H&S laws at the petrol stations that didn't sell big enough cans?

Or perhaps there won't be any foreign yachts coming?

It's all full of stupid incompetent unreal boxticky reasons why they can't do anything sensible, but in reality it's just that politicians of any flavour can't solve real problems competently. They will outsource anything from transport to police to save money, then find out they didn't know what they actually wanted in the first place, but committed to a deal with some corporate opportunist. If they knew how to run anything they'd cope better with the complications.

I look forward to them proving otherwise, but I won't hold my breath.
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that statement is almost certainly correct, they cannot risk bunkering with red.
 
I feel a satire coming on.. A politician running a piss up in a brewery that all goes wrong 'cos none of them can have a drink without violating some EU law, directive or other ,denying someone their human rights.
 
chewi said:
Will the foreign visitors be refused fuel for their return journeys if they won't sign to say they won't use it outside Uk waters? What are they supposed to do, drift home with a letter explaining they couldn't buy enough diesel to get back without also breaking H&S laws at the petrol stations that didn't sell big enough cans?

Or perhaps there won't be any foreign yachts coming?

It's all full of stupid incompetent unreal boxticky reasons why they can't do anything sensible, but in reality it's just that politicians of any flavour can't solve real problems competently. They will outsource anything from transport to police to save money, then find out they didn't know what they actually wanted in the first place, but committed to a deal with some corporate opportunist. If they knew how to run anything they'd cope better with the complications.

I look forward to them proving otherwise, but I won't hold my breath.
Click to expand...

As someone who is 'intelligent...competent,...real...sensible...and capable of problerm solving at a high level' what would you do - given that you have to start from a point where red diesel exists and the Europeans won't accept it?
 
chewi said:
Will the foreign visitors be refused fuel for their return journeys if they won't sign to say they won't use it outside Uk waters? What are they supposed to do, drift home with a letter explaining they couldn't buy enough diesel to get back without also breaking H&S laws at the petrol stations that didn't sell big enough cans?

Or perhaps there won't be any foreign yachts coming?
Click to expand...

I must admit I am sitting here in Ipswich in our Australian flagged yacht, tanks almost empty after a winter using the diesel heater, reading this and various other threads on the issue......

..... and just shaking my head in disbelief at the inanity and idiocy of this situation – when chatting about this to other yachties in various places around the world, they think I’m pulling their plonkers – it takes quite a bit to get them to realise I’m not joking! What sort of Government do you lot have – could I have the name of their dealers?

Not sure what it’ll mean for us - by the time we move on the tanks will be nigh on empty so we have no choice in the matter – we’ll have to get some fuel and so the tanks are going to be contaminated. If we have to sign something so be it – and we’ll have to try and talk our way out of any fines by any EU jobsworth.

With respect to other foreign yachts - well, the UK is not that popular a stop-off for circumnavigators anyway – it’s a bit of a slog up the west coast of Portugal and across Biscay.

Those who do want to come up and sail Northern Europe will still come – but they will probably give the UK a miss. Chatting with another Aussie and a Yankee yacht following us, both say they have scratched the UK off their list and now plan to spend next winter in a marina in France.

It would help if we could get some real facts on it. Where do we stand as non-EU yachts? I tried writing to the Belgium Embassy before Xmas but apart from an acknowledgement of receipt, I have heard nothing to date!

But it’s more than a total farce, it’s a real shame. Other yachties from around the world will miss some great sailing here and you Brits will miss meeting and sailing with them.
 
HinewaisMan said:
I must admit I am sitting here in Ipswich in our Australian flagged yacht, tanks almost empty after a winter using the diesel heater, reading this and various other threads on the issue......

..... and just shaking my head in disbelief at the inanity and idiocy of this situation – when chatting about this to other yachties in various places around the world, they think I’m pulling their plonkers – it takes quite a bit to get them to realise I’m not joking! What sort of Government do you lot have – could I have the name of their dealers?

Not sure what it’ll mean for us - by the time we move on the tanks will be nigh on empty so we have no choice in the matter – we’ll have to get some fuel and so the tanks are going to be contaminated. If we have to sign something so be it – and we’ll have to try and talk our way out of any fines by any EU jobsworth.

With respect to other foreign yachts - well, the UK is not that popular a stop-off for circumnavigators anyway – it’s a bit of a slog up the west coast of Portugal and across Biscay.

Those who do want to come up and sail Northern Europe will still come – but they will probably give the UK a miss. Chatting with another Aussie and a Yankee yacht following us, both say they have scratched the UK off their list and now plan to spend next winter in a marina in France.

It would help if we could get some real facts on it. Where do we stand as non-EU yachts? I tried writing to the Belgium Embassy before Xmas but apart from an acknowledgement of receipt, I have heard nothing to date!

But it’s more than a total farce, it’s a real shame. Other yachties from around the world will miss some great sailing here and you Brits will miss meeting and sailing with them.
Click to expand...

How sad is that? Makes me ashamed to be British...
 
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