replacing sprayhood with windscreen

[Neeves]

I confess I don't know the Southerly well enough, a few were imported and one is in a marina not far away - but I don't know the compound curves to which Tranona refers. I did look over a largish Southerly = it was absolutely gorgeous.

When we built our GodPod when it was roughly finished we took the unit out to our cat (by dinghy) and located it in position. The base was slight oversized and we could cut it back leaving a very rough 'joint' between what I had made and the original coachroof. We then placed packing tape where the joint would be, spread on filled epoxy and plonked the complete unit on top. We used the coach roof as a mould. Once the epoxy had set of it lifted of cleanly with a perfect surface to match the coachroof. We then added a flange, which we glassed to the unit on the outside and glassed the joint and flange with tape.

Once 'finished' we tested for fit and then spray painted with a 2 pack white. (we built a tent, a spray booth, inside the workshop)

We attached with screws through the flange and into the coachroof and filled with sika or silicone (don't recall) - it can be removed if the next owner does not like it.

To keep weight down we did not add the windows until the unit was installed. The front centre window is hinged (upward), with an acrylic hinge and a couple of stainless brackets to hold it up. When open it keep s light rain off and has a sunshade to keep the glare down.

Why can the compound curves of the existing coachroof not be similarly used as a mould? If the existing yacht accepts a pleasing looking canvas spray hood why can that same shape, or dimensions, not be used to make a hard spray hood, windscreen?

Making the Godpod was simply not expensive in financial terms - but it did teach me that my ambitions to build our own cat were unrealistic. Building is easy, fairing is less than stimulating.

Jonathan

 

[AlexKT7]

Got a very informative reply from Adrian @ Northshore (the people who actually built my boat). We will have to just replace sprayhood

With regards to the windscreen/windshield scenario for the Southerly 32, regrettably this is something that has never been designed, due to the cost implication for manufacturing this compared to fitting a standard canvas sprayhood being so great. It was considered as a possibility for the Southerly 36, but as that boat never reach the production stage the design work for this was never completed.

Because we designed our own windshields for the larger boats when we were still producing yachts, we used to multi-source components, i.e. framework, glass, fitting etc from different suppliers, and then assemble together and fit ourselves. For you to fit one to the Southerly 32, you would need to go to a single source design and supply company, such as Trend Marine Trend Marine Glass, Glazing, Specialists, marine glazing who would specialise in the full package for you from design to fit.

As I ball park figure I think you would be looking around £15-£20,000.00 if you were to have a stainless steel frame with glass panels, though an aluminium frame with acrylic panels may be a cheaper option. So that kind of sum would cover replacing the canvas work many, many, times over and is therefore probably not a viable option.

 

[Daydream believer]

As a custom designed product, the same as one made from tube and canvas they will cost more than a production run.

Toughend glass was very expensive but with the increased use of toughened glass in showers and balcony panels prices have dropped, markedly. The idea of an acrylic shower screen is very 20th Century. Acrylic in yacht windows is also less common, many windows and hatches are now toughened glass - and specialist suppliers have developed to meet the need. Most toughened glass, or a lot of it, comes from China now and having it cut to size is not quite as cheap as cutting for a picture frame - but there is a 'processor' near you.

I think one needs to re think those comments.
Toughened glass has been processed in this country for years. One does not "cut toughened glass to size" One cuts ordinary float glass then toughens it. As for China - I very much doubt it as for one thing they do not ( or did not) appear on the list of worlds top glass producers. Typically the French- Saint Gobian & in the UK Pilkingtons as large EU suppliers. Of course things may have changed over the last 10 years.
As for cost I was paying an additional £10-00 per M2 for window manufacturers to supply toughened over float glass in windows for housing in 2011.glass.
One can use laminated glass & I would research if that is a better option. The Glass & Glazing Federation would always be willing to advise

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Moody seem to do it

Moody sailing yachts | The best yacht for every lifestyle

Jonathan

Very nice vid. I like the self tacking jib.

They seem to be looking forward over the top of the windscreen which might not suit everybody . Certainly a season extender design . If I had the resources it would be nice to
dismantle the design during the best of the season (whatever that is) then screw it all back later.

 

[Tranona]

Got a very informative reply from Adrian @ Northshore (the people who actually built my boat). We will have to just replace sprayhood

Just about sums the discussion up. Forgot about Trend. They do a lot of similar work for the big MOBO builders.

Our sprayhood (on a new boat in 2015) was made by Tecsew. Fits beautifully and has a cockpit tonneau attached which goes on in the winter. Has been up permanently and only maintenance was having it cleaned and reproofed last year. Looks like new. Well recommended.

 

[johnalison]

I would not dream of suggesting that one or other course of action is right/wrong, only that each will have its pluses or minuses. We cruised for about thirty years with no sprayhood at all and then jumped to an HR screen twenty years ago. I have sailed with no hood, with other people's sprayhoods, a screen, and occasionally in a pilot house. Of the four, the one I least enjoyed was the sprayhood with plastic windows.

Our screen has the option of folding down the hood part so that it is almost 'open'. Some owners sail like this much of the time but I find the relief from visual glare more comfortable and seldom do this. One suggestion I have is that it is very valuable to have an opening section. On a hot day it can become unbearably hot under the screen/hood and letting the air flow through is a great advantage, a feature that is missing from some marques.

 

[pvb]

I would not dream of suggesting that one or other course of action is right/wrong, only that each will have its pluses or minuses. We cruised for about thirty years with no sprayhood at all and then jumped to an HR screen twenty years ago. I have sailed with no hood, with other people's sprayhoods, a screen, and occasionally in a pilot house. Of the four, the one I least enjoyed was the sprayhood with plastic windows.

Our screen has the option of folding down the hood part so that it is almost 'open'. Some owners sail like this much of the time but I find the relief from visual glare more comfortable and seldom do this. One suggestion I have is that it is very valuable to have an opening section. On a hot day it can become unbearably hot under the screen/hood and letting the air flow through is a great advantage, a feature that is missing from some marques.

My current boat has plastic windows in the sprayhood, and I normally keep the sprayhood folded down unless it's bucketing with rain. I do miss the clarity of the glass windscreen on my old HR. Unlike you, I used to routinely use that with the sprayhood folded on to the top of the screen, so that the screen gave some protection from wind and spray, but it still seemed open to the world.

 

[johnalison]

My current boat has plastic windows in the sprayhood, and I normally keep the sprayhood folded down unless it's bucketing with rain. I do miss the clarity of the glass windscreen on my old HR. Unlike you, I used to routinely use that with the sprayhood folded on to the top of the screen, so that the screen gave some protection from wind and spray, but it still seemed open to the world.

It’s an age thing.

 

[pvb]

It’s an age thing.

Ha! Sadly true!

 

[Tranona]

Your photo clearly shows that the screen is an integral part of the design and illustrates how difficult it would be to make an add on in such a way that it looked the part.

 

[Neeves]

I think one needs to re think those comments.
Toughened glass has been processed in this country for years. One does not "cut toughened glass to size" One cuts ordinary float glass then toughens it. As for China - I very much doubt it as for one thing they do not ( or did not) appear on the list of worlds top glass producers. Typically the French- Saint Gobian & in the UK Pilkingtons as large EU suppliers. Of course things may have changed over the last 10 years.
As for cost I was paying an additional £10-00 per M2 for window manufacturers to supply toughened over float glass in windows for housing in 2011.glass.
One can use laminated glass & I would research if that is a better option. The Glass & Glazing Federation would always be willing to advise

Sadly a lot has happened in the last 10 years.

My apologies - I was not suggesting anyone would cut toughened glass - I should have said having toughened glass cut (by a professional).

We put in frame less glass for a shower screen about 10 years ago. The panels come as a standard size, from China, and as inevitably you need at least one panel of a non standard size - it is cut in Australia. Our neighbour has just put in a glass balcony wall/fence the glass the stainless steel bases - come from China. They too needed some non standard panels - cut in Australia.

If you recall the bendy shanks affair the company who set up the casting business in Shanghai for the flukes specialised in the cast stainless fitting for glass balcony walls and frame less shower screens. That was a long time ago - glass from China is common place here. I think Pilkington have a factory there.

China now produce most things - including MG cars, or cars with an MG logo. I think the electric MG is the cheapest on the market here. The steel made famous by the manufacturers of the bendy shank anchor, Bisplate 80, is also made in China now.

You really think that all those high-rise buildings that are now so characteristic of views of Chinese cities are housed with glass, have glass balconies and frameless glass showers imported from France and the UK. You think all those Chinese cars have glass made in the UK, France, Japan.

There are hundreds of suppliers

China Toughened Glass, Toughened Glass Manufacturers, Suppliers, Price | Made-in-China.com

search through Alibaba and you will find hundreds more, ranging from gorilla glass for your phone through to glass for shopfronts, glass that changes colour with temperature and...........

Jonathan

 

[Daydream believer]

Even a "professional" does not cut toughened glass. If he tried he would end up with a shower of tiny shards.
Most of european glass is NOT imported from China. My son worked for one of the UK's larger curtain wall companies & regularly went to the German glass manufacturer ( forget the name) & other EU suppliers . He tells me that only the Chinese curtain walling company working in Europe ( Once again I cannot pronounce the name)uses Chinese glass as it is just not economical to use in curtain walling. I would suggest that the same probably goes for lots of other bespoke glass items.
As you are based in a different part of the world the Chinese influence is strong, so it may seem to you that most glass comes from there. It simply is not true.
This demonstrates how small the Chinese glass industry is
Largest glass producers
SS trims to glass is NOT glass, neither are MG cars, so not relevant to the discussion

 

[Neeves]

Even a "professional" does not cut toughened glass. If he tried he would end up with a shower of tiny shards.
Most of european glass is NOT imported from China. My son worked for one of the UK's larger curtain wall companies & regularly went to the German glass manufacturer ( forget the name) & other EU suppliers . He tells me that only the Chinese curtain walling company working in Europe ( Once again I cannot pronounce the name)uses Chinese glass as it is just not economical to use in curtain walling. I would suggest that the same probably goes for lots of other bespoke glass items.
As you are based in a different part of the world the Chinese influence is strong, so it may seem to you that most glass comes from there. It simply is not true.
This demonstrates how small the Chinese glass industry is
Largest glass producers
SS trims to glass is NOT glass, neither are MG cars, so not relevant to the discussion

Now - tell me if I have this correct.

If I need a piece of tempered glass to replace a port light or saloon window - the only people who can do this are Pilkington et al, effectively in the UK - only Pilkington. So .......Pilkington, or their equivalent cut the glass for Lewmar etc etc for their hatches and port lights. If you want a custom piece of glass for a balcony, or shower - the only people doing this are......Pilkington

There are no subcontractors with the equipment to allow cutting and tempering?

I have this feeling I need to get out, much more.

There is a business opportunity in here somewhere.

Jonathan

 

[Scotsailor]

Your photo clearly shows that the screen is an integral part of the design and illustrates how difficult it would be to make an add on in such a way that it looked the part.

Some people would be able to do it. The screen that Javelin has made, on the other thread, is excellent. Very professional and really looks the part.

 

[pvb]

Even a "professional" does not cut toughened glass. If he tried he would end up with a shower of tiny shards.

That's obviously correct. Toughened glass has to be cut before the toughening process starts.

Laminated glass can be cut to size.

Can Toughened Glass be cut? » IQ Glass News

 

[Daydream believer]

Now - tell me if I have this correct.

If I need a piece of tempered glass to replace a port light or saloon window - the only people who can do this are Pilkington et al, effectively in the UK - only Pilkington. So .......Pilkington, or their equivalent cut the glass for Lewmar etc etc for their hatches and port lights. If you want a custom piece of glass for a balcony, or shower - the only people doing this are......Pilkington

There are no subcontractors with the equipment to allow cutting and tempering?

I have this feeling I need to get out, much more.

There is a business opportunity in here somewhere.

Jonathan

No. One cuts float glass to size. One can buy this from several suppliers. They round the sharp edges slightly . They then send it to someone to toughen it. If they do not round the edges there is a fair chance that a tiny chip can occur during handling, then the whole pane explodes into shards.
That could be a number of companies, not necessarily Pilkington. In fact Pilkington are such a big company to deal with they can be a bit like dealing with BT et alia.
Alternative
Actually I would probably use laminated glass in my screen on a yacht ( Not that I would want such a thing) & one can just go & buy it from a glazing co anywhere. They could cut it while one waited .
A strike on the glass from a sharp point of a shackle or block etc on to toughened glass could be spectacular to say the least. Likewise, dragging a dinghy on deck with some sharp sand on the hull, over a toughened glass hatch could provide a shower for those below.
Car windscreen are now laminated, but I am sure that some forumites will have stories of a sudden stone hit on the windscreen & having to punch a hole through to see where they were going because the glass broke into hundreds of tiny pieces

 

[Neeves]

I think one needs to re think those comments.
Toughened glass has been processed in this country for years. One does not "cut toughened glass to size" One cuts ordinary float glass then toughens it. As for China - I very much doubt it as for one thing they do not ( or did not) appear on the list of worlds top glass producers. Typically the French- Saint Gobian & in the UK Pilkingtons as large EU suppliers. Of course things may have changed over the last 10 years.
As for cost I was paying an additional £10-00 per M2 for window manufacturers to supply toughened over float glass in windows for housing in 2011.glass.
One can use laminated glass & I would research if that is a better option. The Glass & Glazing Federation would always be willing to advise

I was a bit 'loose' with my words when suggesting you could cut tempered glass. I should have said you can buy, to order, tempered glass to any shape, size (and bent). I have seen mention of both water and laser cutting.

Not only have things changed in the last 10 years - they have changed a lot.

Based on 2019 data:

Sadly I could not find any data differentiating between toughened and laminated.

In terms of Exports China contributes to 26% of toughened and laminated glass world exports. They may not appear on the world's top glass producers but they command 26% of international trade. (for toughened and laminated) . I suspect using 10 year old data is a bit pointless when including data from China. To put China's exports into context the UK exports 1.8%, internationally Pilkington may be on the list of top glass companies but they are minnow in comparison with China.

The UK imports almost 5% of world trade (twice its exports), Oz only contributes a minor 1.6% of toughened and laminated glass imports. in terms of world trade.

There are a number of specialist companies in Sydney, alone, offering cutting, tempering and bending tempered glass, presumably cutting prior to tempering . I guess because these are Australian companies we would never want to call them 'professionals'.

Mr Google, or not being sexist Mr and Mrs Google are your friends.

Jonathan

 

[Daydream believer]

Pilkington is owned by the Japanese ( NSG I think, may be wrong) & is not a minow.
Yes Google is one's friend.
Saint Gobain's turnover alone is £50.44 Billion
China's exports are $17.9 billion
China may export a small quantity but the main producers are in Europe.
But I do not see how your failed attempts at point scoring are helping the thread, so may I suggest we call it quits & leave it there
I am sure others might agree
Cheers

 

[Tranona]

Some people would be able to do it. The screen that Javelin has made, on the other thread, is excellent. Very professional and really looks the part.

Yes it is, but it is not of the type that the OP had in mind, nor dare I say it the sort of thing you would expect to find on a £150k (at the time of building) boat! It is clearly an add on rather than integral to the design like the Scandinavian boats. No reason why Southerly could not have designed a screen from the start as they did on a couple of their bigger boats, but I guess they judged that it was not appropriate for their target market. The OP's stated reason for exploring the idea was the relatively short life of the normal fabric type. However that is clearly a compromise that the majority of boat buyers are prepared to accept.

My own boat would be a candidate for a screen - indeed the HR of that size has a similar coachroof profile - but guess I would have balked at say £5 or 6k extra as opposed to £1500 for an all fabric hood on what is after all a budget priced boat. Bit different for the Southerly as it was in a different price category, but even then buyers make compromises.

 

[lonederanger]

From someone who is currently working in the glazing industry in the U.K .
Most of the annealed glass (float )is produced by a few major suppliers ,Pilkington, saint- gobain and Gaurdian, there are also a few Turkish and eastern europen main sites. These are major sites and produce a continuous flow of glass in varying thicknesses , These are left as clear annealed or then go through another process to have a low emissivity coating "low E" or solar control in a myriad of different styles tints depending on the groups glass specifications. These are then bundled up into an "end cap ". These are then flogged to thousands of independent suppliers who laminate it , toughen it, curve it ,make a glass sealed unit out of it. Making glass is done on a big scale, they never stop, well they did with covid shut downs and we are still feeling the effects as it takes months to get the float baths up to temperature and calibrated so the glass floats at the specific density that it should be. Wherere as toughening and other processes can be done on a much smaller scale. Even the big unit manufactures in the UK do not make their own glass they just have big processing plants to turn it into the product of your choice. Can you stop arguing about things you have absolutely no idea of how they work.