yogainbulgaria
New Member
Hi there Does anyone have any information on replacing lost paper's? I have searched and searched on the internet but no luck. Any advice or links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Sarah
Replacing Lost Yacht Paperwork
- Thread starter yogainbulgaria
- Start date
RichardS
N/A
Welcome to the forum Sarah.
I think you will need to give a bit more information about which papers you are referring to and where the boat is based and registered.
Richard
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
If your yacht is Part 1 Registered, or has been, you can obtain copies of current and past registrations from https://www.gov.uk/register-a-boat/the-uk-ship-register. I think this only goes back to 1990 when the new style of registration started. For earlier Part 1 registrations you can try via the National Archives http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/.../research-guides/registration-merchant-ships/. My own yacht had been registered in Southhampton from 1973 and I obtained a photocopy of the pages of the register for all years from 73 to 90, which gave me a complete record of ownership.
Others have contacted owners associations, some of which have retained some records from now defunct manufacturers, so that can be a good bet. If your vessel has a Lloyds hull number, which is usually issued if it was built under Lloyds Supervision or to a classification such as A1, then they too have records which can be accessed.
Others have contacted owners associations, some of which have retained some records from now defunct manufacturers, so that can be a good bet. If your vessel has a Lloyds hull number, which is usually issued if it was built under Lloyds Supervision or to a classification such as A1, then they too have records which can be accessed.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The two most important bits of paper are the Bill of Sale which is the evidence of title and evidence that VAT has been paid. If the boat is a UK ship then there is no requirement to register title, so without the original Bill of Sale from the last owner there is no clear evidence of title.
As BoB says, if the boat has been on the Part 1 register you may be able to get some history from the registrar, but it may not show who has current title, only the person who last registered the boat. If it is more than 5 years ago then the registration will have lapsed and there is no requirement to register any subsequent changes in ownership.
So essentially if you do not have the Bill of Sale there is no definitive way of establishing ownership.
If, however, the boat is registered in another country you may have more luck because many countries have compulsory registration making establishing ownership easier.
As BoB says, if the boat has been on the Part 1 register you may be able to get some history from the registrar, but it may not show who has current title, only the person who last registered the boat. If it is more than 5 years ago then the registration will have lapsed and there is no requirement to register any subsequent changes in ownership.
So essentially if you do not have the Bill of Sale there is no definitive way of establishing ownership.
If, however, the boat is registered in another country you may have more luck because many countries have compulsory registration making establishing ownership easier.
yogainbulgaria
New Member
Hi Richard We are trying to find what paperwork we need to prove ownership of a yacht. We are new to yachting and do not know the requirements. All we have is an out of date SSR number! Thanks Sarah
yogainbulgaria
New Member
Thank you so much for your help and advice. Much appreciated. Thanks Sarah
yogainbulgaria
New Member
Thanks for your help. I will look into things further. Much appreciated. Thanks Sarah
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You can get a good summary of issues surrounding paperwork, ownership and title on the RYA website.
Yachts, particularly older ones do not have any individual identity, although since 1998 it has been compulsory to have a serial number, known as a HIN or Hull Identification Number which shows who made it and when. However the title paperwork starts with a Builder's Certificate and a Bill of Sale transferring title to the first owner or dealer together with an invoice that shows VAT. The owner may register the title on Part 1, but most do not relying on Part 3 SSR just as evidence that it is British, but it is not a register of title.
Subsequent changes of ownership should be evidenced by a Bill of Sale - you will find a model form on both the RYA and MCA site. Unfortunately over the years people don't follow this process as it is not compulsory. Instead they rely on the word of the seller that they have title and are free to sell. So you end up with the situation you are in. In practice it presents little problem as it is unlikely that anybody would challenge your title to the boat, and you can restart the trail by ensuring you use a Bill of Sale when you sell. Equally there is no barrier to registering on the SSR as you do not have to prove title, just self declare that you own the boat and are resident in the UK.
You will find newer boats (last 20 years or so) tend to have good paperwork - indeed if they don't it should ring alarm bells, but with older boats from an age where such things were not considered important you just have to live with it and get on with enjoying the boat.
Yachts, particularly older ones do not have any individual identity, although since 1998 it has been compulsory to have a serial number, known as a HIN or Hull Identification Number which shows who made it and when. However the title paperwork starts with a Builder's Certificate and a Bill of Sale transferring title to the first owner or dealer together with an invoice that shows VAT. The owner may register the title on Part 1, but most do not relying on Part 3 SSR just as evidence that it is British, but it is not a register of title.
Subsequent changes of ownership should be evidenced by a Bill of Sale - you will find a model form on both the RYA and MCA site. Unfortunately over the years people don't follow this process as it is not compulsory. Instead they rely on the word of the seller that they have title and are free to sell. So you end up with the situation you are in. In practice it presents little problem as it is unlikely that anybody would challenge your title to the boat, and you can restart the trail by ensuring you use a Bill of Sale when you sell. Equally there is no barrier to registering on the SSR as you do not have to prove title, just self declare that you own the boat and are resident in the UK.
You will find newer boats (last 20 years or so) tend to have good paperwork - indeed if they don't it should ring alarm bells, but with older boats from an age where such things were not considered important you just have to live with it and get on with enjoying the boat.
prv
Well-Known Member
yogainbulgaria
New Member
Thanks Tranona The yacht I am talking about was built in 1978 so my mind is a little more settled. Thank you for all your help and advice. Much appreciated. Thanks Sarah
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
For anyone that is interested the contact details below is where I obtained a copy of all Part 1 registered details before the current Cardiff based database was set up. For a small fee the archivist took a photograph of each page of the register and emailed them through. I supplied the vessel name, registration number and date of first registration, although any date that one knew the vessel was registered can be used. It should be noted that 3 years ago when I obtained the copies the search involved manually looking through the register, hence the importance of a known registration date.
Southampton Archives Services
Southampton City Council
Civic Centre
Southampton
S014 7LY
Tel: 023 8022 3855
Fax: 023 8083 2156
E-Mail: city.archives@southampton.gov.uk
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
and even more difficult if you change the name of your fridge
Joker
Well-Known Member
I used a similar argument with Dutch Customs a couple of years ago when they demanded proof I'd paid VAT on the boat.
'If I drive thru your country,' I asked, 'am I likely to be stopped and asked for proof that I've paid VAT on my car?'
'Not the same,' they said.
'Why?'
Buurble burble.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
He was quite right. Boats are specifically treated differently under EU VAT rules which require you to be able to prove that VAT has been paid if you move a boat to another state otherwise that state can charge VAT as if it was an import.
The problem is that rule is contradictory to another that says VAT matters are the responsibility of the state where the transaction (or chargeable event) took place. Some states (including Holland) deal with this anomaly by having a means of officially certifying the VAT status. For all sorts of sound reasons we do not have that in the UK, hence the reaction of the Dutch customs when confronted with a situation alien to them.
Fortunately there is little evidence that other states in general make an issue of this with UK visitors.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
I bought my 1981-built boat in Holland in 2005 with no 'Deemed VAT-paid' documentation, which I know the Dutch customs issue when requested. When I wrote to them requesting a copy they replied that it was unnecessary due to the build-year. However, I believe that will cut little ice with the Croatian customs if they should ever zero in on me when cruising there as I have no documentary proof the boat was in an EU state in 1992.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
At the time this all started (1992) the transition arrangements were considered simple and easily understood - and for most people of little importance. However the passage of time and the enlargement of the EU to incorporate states with a different approach to legislation means what was a pragmatic solution to a minor problem potentially becomes problematic.
Anyway now Mr Juncker has at last recognised that all is not well with the EU maybe such minor problems will disappear completely!
