Remote control

[TwoHooter]

I am looking at remote control systems, like Yacht Controller. I haven't yet found one which controls steering. Typically they control thrusters and engine, but not the helm.

Does anyone know why this is?

 

[aquapower]

I am looking at remote control systems, like Yacht Controller. I haven't yet found one which controls steering. Typically they control thrusters and engine, but not the helm.

Does anyone know why this is?

They were developed for manoeuvring and with twin engines there's no need to worry about steering.
Yacht controller is good system and although its not cheap its very good, I have used a few now and would recommend it.

 

[jrudge]

Bear in mind it is very expensive for what it is.

I made my own. Bow thruster, stern thruster, both engines, anchor for £175 all in.

The radio transmission is digialy encoded, has a requirement for continuous transmission of cut off and so on.

They charge nearly £6500 for this.

Their protection is a very flimsy patent.

Sure it works, but the markup is truly insane.

Boats have steer by wire now ,most controlling this would be possible but rudders have no impact when manoeuvring a shaft boat at close qtrs so there is really little to gain.

 

[TwoHooter]

@aquapower - thanks but this is for a single engine boat

@jrjudge - many thanks for your reply - I applaud you! However I do find the rudder on my single engine boat is effective right up to the pontoon if I stay ahead of the game.

Yacht Controller claim that "home made" systems have destroyed engines - see this link. That's an interesting allegation and I would like to see some real-life examples.

The Yact Controller patent is US 7104212 B2. There's another patent in Europe held by a different inventor, G08C17 / 02 (Spain) which recognises and seeks to differentiate itself from the US patent. I can't find anything at the EPO or the IPO. I wonder how many cease-and-desist claims Yacht Controller LLC and the other patentee have successfully prosecuted against other producers of remote control systems for motor boats.

 

[jrudge]

The principals of how they work are extremely simple. Bow and stern are simply relays in parallel.

The engine controls apply a shunt across the throttle head that changes the voltage of the throttle control wire. This is 0 to 5v. Neutral is approx 2.5v, forward say 2.6 and reverse 2.4 ( these are just examples). This is how they all work inc yc. They are using fear to justify an astonishing margin!

You do need to ensure you have guaranteed communication between the transmitter and receiver , but there are commercially available modules that do exactly that.

Assuming you have an auto helm you could probably convince it to move the rudder, but given the degree of adjustment required as compared to steering under way I suspect it would exceed the duty cycle of the pump mechanism.

 

[TwoHooter]

My plan is for a new single engine long range trawler. I figure on designing the steering - and everything else - to accept remote control from the outset, and build the remote control system so it is an integral part of the boat, not an "add on".

 

[jrudge]

So if the servo will take full rudder deflection at nil speed ( i.e. a lot of load, possibly several times a minute for a few minutes) then all you need to do is control it.

The auto helm will send out signals - left and right - to the servo. You don't need auto helm when docking!

Please bear in mind that I researched how to control an engine extensively, but I know little about auto helms - from from here on do your own research!

There would seem to be two ways of sending the signal

a. you tap into sea talk and give the auto helm left / right commands. The only person I know who could help on this is Angus Mac Doon on the PBO forum as he builds stuff like this regularly.


b. you intercept the control wires going to the rudder servo and put in a relay that will hence allow you to select if your box is controlling the servo, or the auto helm.

Then all that is left is to understand what signal the servo requires to go left and right - probably a simple voltage.

The next challenge is all this will do is tell it to move left and right. The auto helm knows where it is using a helm indicator.

At this level of complexity ( as I assume you want to command a certain amount of rudder) you really need a micro controller. They are cheap ( sub £10 for a built board) but of course need programming which whilst probably not complex per se requires a certain level of knowledge ( which I don't have!).

It is programmed to read the rudder indicator and apply power accordingly. On your box you could have standard selections for Port 25% / 50% 100% and same for stbd so you could actually command something.

My personal view is at this point it will get confusing to use and you will simply use the wheel to see what is going on! Twin boats don't have this issue as rudders do not work when parking!



My controller used this as the basis for the remote control

http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/info_ZULUEVAL_T.html#SID=217

It allows simultaneous control of 10 channels ( you can use more than one command at once at once), it establishes a secure connection, and if the transmitter and receiver do not communicate with each other all the time the watchdog function turns the outputs off. So if you go out of range, there is interference, the battery goes flat or whatever, if you are not commanding it it turns off. Additionally all instructions sent to the receiver are acknowledged back to the transmitter. If not again it shuts down.

This gave me total assurance that the receiver only does what it is asked by the transmitter, which in itself is digitally paired to the receiver.

The worst case is the received shuts off all outputs - which given the application is rather more desirable than the alternative!

Good luck. My 2 pence worth is drop the rudder idea. Try it. When docking leave the wheel and instead command SWMBO 10 degrees port, std etc. I suspect it will be far harder than turning the wheel.

BTW the hardest part about making a unit was the hand held control box. I spent hours and hours finding, designing, printing front panels etc so it looked OEM and was nice to hold.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Was this for your T40, or a prev boat? Sounds like a great project. Any photos?

 

[jrudge]

T40 you could do it also. You just intercept the throttle head - which is basically a potentiometer. you are not touching the core electronics, and the engine controller is doing all the work, you are just bridging the potentiometer so it thinks is it one click ahead or astern. This is exactly how the commercial products work.


http://boatinfo.no/lib/volvo/manuals/41wiring.html#/54

Page 53 - this may not be you're set up - but the principal is the same.

In the middle of the picture you can see item 5 , or 5a and 5b for the twin version. That is a potentiometer and is your throttle.

There are 3 wires identified by colour.

Basically all you do is determine the voltage on the middle line when it is at one click forward and one click back.

You then bridge it with a relay controlled trim potentiometer. With the engine OFF! you trim it to get the same voltage. One for forward, one for back. When the engine is running click the relay and the engine engages.

Simples.

Took me about 3 weeks to figure that out! The power of forums!

 

[TwoHooter]

@jrudge - great extra info, thanks. I would have replied sooner but have been offline travelling.

I have found a single engine boat that uses Yacht Controller successfully (without rudder control of course) but he has stern thruster as well as bow. I wasn't going to have a stern thruster but perhaps it would be easier & cheaper than trying to gain rudder control from the hand-held.

The following sales pitch arrived this morning - I saw this firm at METS. Cheaper than Yacht Controller but still not down to £175!

DOCKMATE, wireless control of engines, horn, bow thruster, stern thruster and windlass.
You can flawlessly maneuver your ship with the tips of your fingers from any place on board.
After looking for an affordable wireless system which could not be found on the market, we finally have a highly reliable product.
DOCKMATE was developed completely from scratch by us from our parent company PPA-Electronics. This system allows every skipper to dock his ship single-handed.
Watch to the centimeter how you berth your boat safely.
All boats with electronic engine control can be equipped with our DOCKMATE system, regardless the type or length of the yacht. It also exists for ships with one engine.
Operation is easy, accurate, safe and reliable, and can be done from any location on board.
- Our transmitter, preferably worn with a neck strap, has a very simple layout, is completely waterproof and floats. When the transmitter somehow slips out of your hands, then immediately all systems drop to neutral. The DOCKMATE signal reaches up to 50 meters.
- Our receiver is mounted behind the dashboard and measures about 22 by 22 cm.
In our most simple configuration, the transmitter sends a coded digital signal to the receiver which operates the gears and horn. The system can be modularly extended with bow thruster, stern thruster and windlass.
Each DOCKMATE system is unique and will not be disturbed by any other DOCKMATE.
Installation time: max. 1 working day, including testing.
Factory warranty: 3 years
Retail price: starting from 2500 € excl. VAT, incl. installation.
DEALERS WANTED WORLDWIDE
For more information:
Dockmate (by PPA-Electronics)
PostPress Advisers b.v.b.a.
Dhr. Dirk illegems
Felix Aertgeertsstraat 15
BE-3128 Baal
BELGIUM
Tel. : +32 (0)16 46 54 47
Mob : +32 (0)475 45 37 35
info@dockmate.eu
www.dockmate.eu

 

[jrudge]

Well E2500 is a lot better than the thick end of £7k for the alternative!

 

[TwoHooter]

Well E2500 is a lot better than the thick end of £7k for the alternative!

But E2500 is still a lot more than GBP175. OTOH there's a few extras to think about:- Product Liability insurance (Imagine the conversation: "You smashed your boat into my Heesen and the bill for repairs is half a million" - "Not my fault, it's this controller thingy, I'm suing them"); office overhead; marketing costs; distributor margin;...... patent attorney?

 

[jrudge]

In my view their price is about right. It is not about the cost of the bits but running a business and covering overhead in a relatively low volume market.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

T40 you could do it also. You just intercept the throttle head - which is basically a potentiometer. you are not touching the core electronics, and the engine controller is doing all the work, you are just bridging the potentiometer so it thinks is it one click ahead or astern. This is exactly how the commercial products work.


http://boatinfo.no/lib/volvo/manuals/41wiring.html#/54

Page 53 - this may not be you're set up - but the principal is the same.

In the middle of the picture you can see item 5 , or 5a and 5b for the twin version. That is a potentiometer and is your throttle.

There are 3 wires identified by colour.

Basically all you do is determine the voltage on the middle line when it is at one click forward and one click back.

You then bridge it with a relay controlled trim potentiometer. With the engine OFF! you trim it to get the same voltage. One for forward, one for back. When the engine is running click the relay and the engine engages.

Simples.

Took me about 3 weeks to figure that out! The power of forums!

I missed this reply a few days ago, sorry. Sounds like a fun project and I think I'll probably have a go at it. I'm very aware that the evc control head is just a pair of (Bosch) pots in an expensive casting, I had a flurry of lever calibration faults a while ago and I ended up taking the assembly to pieces and cleaning everything up (ambitiously, while at anchor between the Lerins... just as well I got it all back together again).

You mentioned about making the remote itself look OE - how did you do this? Did you buy an enclosure with a ready-made button membrane or something? (I notice that the Yachtcontroller and the Dockmate remotes both seem to have the same form, although that might be Dockmate copying the established competitor).

 

[TwoHooter]

I too would like to see a picture of jrudge's remote.

 

[Chill]

Sounds fantastic Jrudge! You could go into business installing them! I would have one..
Wish I was technical and could tackle such a project as it would be an amazing bit of kit. I think I paid 300 quid for a QL remmote for the bowthruster so recon you could make a decent mark up!!

 

[Chill]

You can have a joystick with this unit

http://www.hydronautica.nl/en/producten/ezy-dock/

 

[TwoHooter]

You can have a joystick with this unit

http://www.hydronautica.nl/en/producten/ezy-dock/

Tasty: http://www.hydronautica.nl/en/producten/remote-motor-control-rmc/
But it still doesn't control the helm.
Yes, I know, I am hard to please.

(PS: where did that Yacht Controller patent thingy go? Lost in Transit? DOA?)