Regatta racing rules opinions please

[tudorsailor]

So here we were, novice racers in our second ever regatta. We had a near miss and wonder what we might have done should things have become even tighter

We were approaching a large rock/small island that was the first mark of a triangular course. The rock was to be left to port. We were on a a port tack. A bigger yacht came from behind to be downwind and parallel to us. Across our path was a line of 6 yachts heading at 90 degrees to us towards rock/island all on Starboard tack. We only just managed to pass behind one of the yachts. It was tight because we could not tack to port towards the island and the yacht on our starboard downwind side was not giving us any room. If we thought that we might t-bone the yacht crossing our path, could we have called for "water" and got the downwind yacht to bear away and give us room to pass behind ahead? Had we been in a situation where we did not think we could actually get past the yacht ahead what should we have done? Just borne away in the hope that the downwind yacht would give us room or just let out all the sails to slow ourselves down?

How should I get instruction on this kind of racing for next year???? I live in London so getting to the Solent is possible

Thanks

Tudorsailor

 

[flaming]

First off, the presence of the island/mark is irrelevant to this situation from a rules perspective.

Secondally you were correct. The yachts on starboard rank as an obstruction to you and the other port tack boats.

The exact text in the relevant section of the definition of "obstruction" is. "An object that a boat could not ass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths away from it.... However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to kee clear of her, give her room or mark room, or if rule 22 applies, avoid her"

Clearly you have to keep clear of the starboard tack boats, so they are an obstruction.

My understanding is that you are on a collision course with starboard tacker have the right to pass either side. In other words it's your choice to tack or duck it, and any boats ON THE SAME TACK AS YOU must give room. However, they only have to give room once hailed.

Pressed for time right now, but that's the basics, will pop back in the morning to see if anything more needs adding.

 

[dt4134]

For next year get a decent book on the rules. My favourite is the Bryan Willis book. The UK Halsey website has a few animated examples too.

Just like the ColRegs debate on these fora there's a lot of mis-information and misunderstanding of the RRS in many fleets, so you have to understand the rules well in order to be assertive during the race.

Anyway, on to this case.

Basically the port-tack boat to leeward of you makes the decision. If he wants to tack, he calls it and you have to give him room to tack.

However, if he ducks the starboard tack boat he has to give you room to do the same.

From your description it sounds like he did actually give you room to duck the starboard tacker, even if it was not as much as you'd have liked, so you'd have long odds on winning a protest.

If you feel a boat is not giving you sufficient room, demand it. I've sailed with an International Judge a few times and he was firm in making it clear to other boats what he expected.

One tactical trick, if your crew is slick enough, when the starboard layline is full is to tack just below the layline, focus on speed up to the mark, then shoot it. Not that advisable though if the mark is a rocky islet.

Remember though that you can't force a boat above close-hauled if you complete your tack within three boat lengths, but it is not unknown for the entire pack on the starboard tack layline to overstand then bear off, so there is sometimes space for the bold. Better usually though to avoid tacking in 'the zone'.

 

[flaming]

Basically the port-tack boat to leeward of you makes the decision. If he wants to tack, he calls it and you have to give him room to tack.

However, if he ducks the starboard tack boat he has to give you room to do the same.

Yes..... and no.......

This applies if the leward boat is also on a collision course with the starboard tacker. He cannot call for room to tack if he is not going to have to alter course. If you need room, and he doesn't then it becomes your choice.

 

[pelissima]

Lots of practice below

http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm

 

[dt4134]

Yes..... and no.......

This applies if the leward boat is also on a collision course with the starboard tacker. He cannot call for room to tack if he is not going to have to alter course. If you need room, and he doesn't then it becomes your choice.

Agreed. He'd still have to give you room to duck the starboard tacker, but you could tack anyway.

 

[temptress]

Simply put – you should not be there! Next time you need to look up the course a bit more.

Going back to your situation your options depend on where you are in relation to the “zone” around the mark. It would seem, from the description in your original post, that you have room between youself and the ‘rock/mark’ to tack then gybe then tack (ie a 360) to go around behind the boat to leeward.

If in your opinion you don’t have room to tack, say because that would put you onto the ‘rock’ then you can call for water. Once “water” is called the other boats have to give it to you. If they think you are not entitled to it then that is a matter for the protest room.

 

[flaming]

Simply put – you should not be there! Next time you need to look up the course a bit more.

Going back to your situation your options depend on where you are in relation to the “zone” around the mark. It would seem, from the description in your original post, that you have room between youself and the ‘rock/mark’ to tack then gybe then tack (ie a 360) to go around behind the boat to leeward.

If in your opinion you don’t have room to tack, say because that would put you onto the ‘rock’ then you can call for water. Once “water” is called the other boats have to give it to you. If they think you are not entitled to it then that is a matter for the protest room.

But you don't have to tack, you're entitled to room to duck.

 

[temptress]

You are absolutely not entitled to call for room to duck to avoid a starboard tack vessel. You cannot sail down on the leeward boat he can luff you where he likes. You should not be there. The rule are very specific about this.

 

[flaming]

You are absolutely not entitled to call for room to duck to avoid a starboard tack vessel. You cannot sail down on the leeward boat he can luff you where he likes. You should not be there. The rule are very specific about this.

That is incorrect.

The starboard tacker ranks as an obstruction. You are entitled to room at an obstruction. If the leward boat (right of way boat) decides to duck he has to give you room too.

See the text of rule 19 and the definition of "obstruction" for details.

"Obstruction - An object that a boat could not pass without changing course
substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull
lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an
area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However,
a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her, give her room or mark-room or, if rule 22 applies, avoid
her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing
obstruction."

Under this definition a starboard tacker IS an obstruction to port tack boats, as they are required to keep clear of it.

"19 ROOM TO PASS AN OBSTRUCTION
19.1 When Rule 19 Applies
Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except when it is
also a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side. However,
at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18
does not.
19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on
either side.
(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the
inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she
has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.
(c) While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that
was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped
between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the
moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass
between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b).
While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and
rules 10 and 11 do not apply."

So under 19.2(a) the leward right of way boat has the right to choose which side of the obstruction to pass. In this situation that means tacking or ducking.
Under 19.2(b) if the leward boat decides to duck then he is the outside overlaped boat with respect to the starboard tack obstruction, and thus obligated to give room to the inside overlapped, windward, boat.

 

[dt4134]

You are absolutely not entitled to call for room to duck to avoid a starboard tack vessel. You cannot sail down on the leeward boat he can luff you where he likes. You should not be there. The rule are very specific about this.

I'm with Flaming on this one. The Starboard tacker is an obstruction & you have the right to room to duck.

If you disagree you'll have to quote me the rule on it.

 

[temptress]

I disagree.

WHICH RULE APPLIES?

• Rule 10, (Port and Starboard)
• Rule 11, (Windward and Leeward)
• Rule 12, (Clear Ahead, Clear Astern)
• Rule 19 (Obstruction)

All of these can come into play in this situation.

A hail for room to tack has priority. When rule 20, Room to Tack at an Obstruction applies (Water to tack, please!), rules 18, Mark-Room, and 19, Room to Pass an Obstruction, do not (Preamble to Section C)

Rule 18, Mark-Room applies at marks, including marks that are also obstructions (Rule 19.1). So the committee boat on the finishing line will often be both a mark and an obstruction. Rule 18 applies when passing it

However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not (rule 19.1), even if the continuing obstruction is a mark (rule 18.1(d)). ‘Leave Antarctica to starboard’ (Vendée Globe): Antarctica has a required side, and so it is a mark, but it is also a continuing obstruction, so rule 19 applies, and technically there is no ‘zone’!
At all other obstructions, rule 19 applies

From where do you define Starboard boat an obstruction? He is a competitor and RULE 10 applies.

 

[flaming]

I disagree.

WHICH RULE APPLIES?

• Rule 10, (Port and Starboard)
• Rule 11, (Windward and Leeward)
• Rule 12, (Clear Ahead, Clear Astern)
• Rule 19 (Obstruction)

All of these can come into play in this situation.

A hail for room to tack has priority. When rule 20, Room to Tack at an Obstruction applies (Water to tack, please!), rules 18, Mark-Room, and 19, Room to Pass an Obstruction, do not (Preamble to Section C)

Rule 18, Mark-Room applies at marks, including marks that are also obstructions (Rule 19.1). So the committee boat on the finishing line will often be both a mark and an obstruction. Rule 18 applies when passing it

However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not (rule 19.1), even if the continuing obstruction is a mark (rule 18.1(d)). ‘Leave Antarctica to starboard’ (Vendée Globe): Antarctica has a required side, and so it is a mark, but it is also a continuing obstruction, so rule 19 applies, and technically there is no ‘zone’!
At all other obstructions, rule 19 applies

From where do you define Starboard boat an obstruction? He is a competitor and RULE 10 applies.

Yes, rule 10 applies between the starboard tack boats and the approaching port tack boats, and any incident between them would be dealt with under this rule. But that's not what we're talking about, we're talking about the situation between the two port tack boats approaching the starboard tack boat.

As I posted earlier, a starboard tack boat fits the definition of an obstruction to two port tack boats, as they are required to keep clear of it. Without it fitting this description there would be absolute mayhem. Imagine a situation with three port tack boats, the windward one just clearing the starboard tacker's bow, the middle one on a collision course and the leward one just clearing astern. If the starboard tacker was not an obstruction, giving the middle boat the right to room to miss it, he would have nowhere to go.

You mention continuing obstructions, but these are not relavent, as the definition of obstruction specifically excludes a boat racing from being a continuing obstruction. I put the full text of the definition of obstruction in a previous post.

You are right that a hail to tack has priority, as leward is the right of way and has the right to pass the obstruction on whichever side he chooses but to be able to make that hail the leward boat has to need to avoid the obstruction. If he's clearing astern he cannot make windward tack, and as he is then outside overlapped on leward and as such must give room under rule 19.

And of course even if he has to avoid leward may not want to tack, it may be tactically better for him to duck, but in this case he has to give windward room to duck if windward wants to duck as well.

 

[flaming]

Found it!

Ok, so here is the UK Halsey rules quiz that deals with this situation.

You'll have to give them an email address to get access, but they've had mine for 3 years and I don't get spam from them.

http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/quiz_detail.asp?id=quizM09

Situation 1 is where leward decides to tack, situation 2 is where they decide to duck.

 

[temptress]

Well, well well - having just gone to find my copy of Bryan Willis to prove you al wrong I would seem that it is me who is ion the wrong. He is indeed entitled to room! Even if he's not called for it.