Refurbish a Facnor SD 180 furler drum and swivel

[greeny]

What parts did you replace?

None required, after washing in white spirit and reassembling the swivel ran well. And I didn't lose any balls. Well actually I dropped some but found them on the garage floor. I was surprised when I stripped it, that it was ok and didn't need any parts. I'd expected rusty circlips and bearings worn beyond further use but the problem was 13 yrs worth of dirt and gunge causing it to be sticky and graunchy and sticking when trying to furl with any halyard tension on.
In hindsight, maybe a few kettles of boiling water followed by a good washing out with WD or similar may have solved the problem without its removal from the stay. I'd tried the WD but not the boiling water first. At least I've now seen inside though and know for sure it's going to be ok.

 

[Beneteau381]

What parts did you replace?

Perhaps these? Hardened 316 Stainless Steel Balls: Hardened AISI 316 Bearings

 

[Beneteau381]

None required, after washing in white spirit and reassembling the swivel ran well. And I didn't lose any balls. Well actually I dropped some but found them on the garage floor. I was surprised when I stripped it, that it was ok and didn't need any parts. I'd expected rusty circlips and bearings worn beyond further use but the problem was 13 yrs worth of dirt and gunge causing it to be sticky and graunchy and sticking when trying to furl with any halyard tension on.
In hindsight, maybe a few kettles of boiling water followed by a good washing out with WD or similar may have solved the problem without its removal from the stay. I'd tried the WD but not the boiling water first. At least I've now seen inside though and know for sure it's going to be ok.

Woops beat me to it!

 

[ithet]

None required, after washing in white spirit and reassembling the swivel ran well. And I didn't lose any balls. Well actually I dropped some but found them on the garage floor. I was surprised when I stripped it, that it was ok and didn't need any parts. I'd expected rusty circlips and bearings worn beyond further use but the problem was 13 yrs worth of dirt and gunge causing it to be sticky and graunchy and sticking when trying to furl with any halyard tension on.
In hindsight, maybe a few kettles of boiling water followed by a good washing out with WD or similar may have solved the problem without its removal from the stay. I'd tried the WD but not the boiling water first. At least I've now seen inside though and know for sure it's going to be ok.

I am pleased to hear this as, on the last visit to boat, wife poured two kettles of hot water through. Have not used in anger yet. Hoping that this will have solved the sticking problem we had end of last year.

Perhaps these? Hardened 316 Stainless Steel Balls: Hardened AISI 316 Bearings

Thanks, if a strip down is needed next year I will make sure I have my balls in hand.

BTW, I think a problem in my case has been caused by the PO taking the genoa halyard back to a cockpit clutch, and so to load up using the halyard winch. Reading the original fitting instructions, it seems that this gear was not specified to take such loads, as Beneteau originally fitted a simple mast jammer arrangement. I shall now only apply hand tension and live with a few creases!

 

[greeny]

BTW, I think a problem in my case has been caused by the PO taking the genoa halyard back to a cockpit clutch, and so to load up using the halyard winch. Reading the original fitting instructions, it seems that this gear was not specified to take such loads, as Beneteau originally fitted a simple mast jammer arrangement. I shall now only apply hand tension and live with a few creases!
[/QUOTE]

That's interesting to note because I've done exactly the same. Maybe I should revert back to original.

 

[Beneteau381]

BTW, I think a problem in my case has been caused by the PO taking the genoa halyard back to a cockpit clutch, and so to load up using the halyard winch. Reading the original fitting instructions, it seems that this gear was not specified to take such loads, as Beneteau originally fitted a simple mast jammer arrangement. I shall now only apply hand tension and live with a few creases!

That's interesting to note because I've done exactly the same. Maybe I should revert back to original.
[/QUOTE]
My 381 came with the cockpit fitting to winch, although when fitting the sail, I go to the furler and feed it in while the bride winds it up. I feel the tension and make sure it isnt too tight.

 

[Neil_H]

Pretty certain my system is a Facnor LS180 and I had problems with the CX swivel after only 3.5 years. I believe that the SD swivel might be easier to dismantle but the model I have is very different.

I contacted Facnor at the time and explained that I wasn't near any dealers. They eventually supplied suggestions to inject grease and then oil when I said that was impossible. Pretty certain my messages weren't directed to anyone technical. I did finally get the exploded diagram I needed to dismantle the swivel. It wasn't really much help and was eventually told it could only be done by a dealer when I asked for clearer instructions.

I can usually work out how to dismantle anything unless special tools are required and even then I usually manage.

My final solution was simple enough. Remove the swivel and dismantle as far as possible to take out seals, plastic inserts, circlips and so forth. Place in a bucket and drizzle diesel into the swivel over 2-3 days until it runs clear. I collected an amazing amount of fine black gritty material. Allow to bake dry in the sun for a couple of days before spraying lots of Holts Pro-lube into the swivel. The Pro-lube is very thin and does run inside when the upright swivel is rotated. It does thicken up if left but still runs into the bearing.

I did this about 7 years ago and the swivel was still fine last year. I always re-grease the end seals at start and end of each season to slow down dust penetration. It serves no purpose in actually lubricating the swivel. I did this since new as per Facnor's instructions but the bearing still became sticky. I now seal the swivel top with plastic and self-amalgamating tape each winter and squeeze a little grease into the slot in the foil just above the swivel. Lots of Sahara dust in winter and this should stop water running down into the bearing.

I would be interested in a source for new top and bottom seals but haven't managed to find anyone selling the correct size.

Thanks everyone for good info - I'm about to tacklethe same problem on a 2016 vintage LX165 with sealed bearings. Mistroma, I and no doubt others would appreciate a copy of the exploded diagram please and thank you!

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

78 mm = 3.07087......... 3 inch?
56 mm = 2.20472......... 2 1/4 inch? (2.25in)
9mm = 8444............... 1/3 inch would equal 9.525mm

Have you ruled out Imperial?

Highly unlikely to be Imperial, it's French.

 

[Mistroma]

Thanks everyone for good info - I'm about to tacklethe same problem on a 2016 vintage LX165 with sealed bearings. Mistroma, I and no doubt others would appreciate a copy of the exploded diagram please and thank you!

Diagram for the model I have.

There's a discussion here where dismantling is mentioned. It's another forum where one person describes the method but it was destructive and he is trying to work out how to replace one part. It seems a simple part to make with correct material and tools.

 

[Neil_H]

Diagram for the model I have.

There's a discussion here where dismantling is mentioned. It's another forum where one person describes the method but it was destructive and he is trying to work out how to replace one part. It seems a simple part to make with correct material and tools.

Thank you very much Mistroma. Looks promising... did they give the parts list to go with?

 

[West Coast]

I believe Mistroma was referring to my efforts to service a Facnor LS 180, fitted to my jeanneau SO 439 built 2012. Earlier this year, just before a 2 week cruise holiday the genoa furler jammed and the fault was identified as the top swivel. I only had time to replace it (otherwise the 2 week holiday would have to be abandoned) which was an expensive option. However, I kept the original failed unit to see if I could refurbish it.

I finally managed to dismantle it in my workshop. Having read as many on-line threads as I could find, it seems that, even for just the LS 180, that there are a number of variants in Facnor designs - some have steel ball bearings, some have tolron, some have mild steel circlips, some stainless, some have lip seals, some don't, some have loose plastic bushes which can be shaken out, some have friction fit bushes and so on. So no "one fix all" approach.

Mine had black type bushes made by IGUS plastics for Facnor from some kind of high density plastic. The bush function is to keep the inner and outer collars of the swivels concentric. The ball races were loose stainless steel balls, with pressed stainless steel bearing plates. The circlips were stainless. Once I had removed the external lip seals and the outer circlips, I was faced with the problem of removing the bushes. No amount of gentle coaxing etc would get either to budge. Eventually, for the swivel, I drilled and tapped some wood screws into the upper bush so I could pull it out. Unfortunately (my fault) I damaged this swivel bush on removal, so will have to replace this if I am to re-assemble this old swivel for future use or selling. Once the upper bush was removed, final dismantling was relatively straightforward (more circlips). Inside, I found a horrible mess of congealed grease and water; no wonder it had jammed.

I approached Facnor for a spare bush and lip seals - they were not interested. The UK agent apologised and was able to tell me the bushes were made by IGUS. I contacted IGUS who were helpful, suggested the plastic was likely Igldur J material, but the bush was a non standard part and all they could do was quote for a machined replacement from solid bar - £170 for one or circa £80 each if ordering 10 !! So far, I have not pursued this further, need to find a cheaper source somehow. The part is simple, 63.8 id, 81.2 od and 24.7mm long, parallel sided, but need to get a plastic with reasonable bearing strength, low friction and and minimal water and thermal expansion properties (UHWMPE?).

Meantime, I decided to remove the lower drum over the winter to service it. I found it to be a very similar the same design as the swivel with similar press fit bushes. This time I took a more measured approach and carefully drilled and tapped 2 x M3 threaded holes to 10mm depth at opposing positions on the bush, this has not affected the bush as the wall thickness is 8.8mm. I screwed in 2 longish M3 bolts and set up a pulling mechanism - it took some persuasion to pull out against the friction fit, but did come out with no damage and I intend to reuse it. So I would suggest this approach is sound for anyone attempting the same. Again, inside I found stainless ball bearings bearing onto pressed steel plates, lots of horrible water and grease residue, but no permanent damage and nothing too difficult to clean and re-grease. I am now seeking a source for replacement lip seals so I can re-assemble to fit again in the spring.

I have taken lots of photos and planning to write this up for whom ever may find this useful - the line from Facnor is these units are not serviceable but I believe with some reasonable DIY skills, is certainly do-able.

I am not very familiar with the specification of lip seals, and would appreciate advice as to what I have and how to specify a UK SOURCED replacement? The drum lip seal is made by CHO (Taiwanese) TCF 55x73x7 in size (P/N 04524). Not sure of material, it has a steel shell fully encased in the seal material with a stainless steel lip spring. I cannot find a UK agent for CHO, so have emailed them to ask. The swivel lip seal is also CHO , same construction but a different size TCF 63x81x7 (P/N 04522).

 

[Beneteau381]

I believe Mistroma was referring to my efforts to service a Facnor LS 180, fitted to my jeanneau SO 439 built 2012. Earlier this year, just before a 2 week cruise holiday the genoa furler jammed and the fault was identified as the top swivel. I only had time to replace it (otherwise the 2 week holiday would have to be abandoned) which was an expensive option. However, I kept the original failed unit to see if I could refurbish it.

I finally managed to dismantle it in my workshop. Having read as many on-line threads as I could find, it seems that, even for just the LS 180, that there are a number of variants in Facnor designs - some have steel ball bearings, some have tolron, some have mild steel circlips, some stainless, some have lip seals, some don't, some have loose plastic bushes which can be shaken out, some have friction fit bushes and so on. So no "one fix all" approach.

Mine had black type bushes made by IGUS plastics for Facnor from some kind of high density plastic. The bush function is to keep the inner and outer collars of the swivels concentric. The ball races were loose stainless steel balls, with pressed stainless steel bearing plates. The circlips were stainless. Once I had removed the external lip seals and the outer circlips, I was faced with the problem of removing the bushes. No amount of gentle coaxing etc would get either to budge. Eventually, for the swivel, I drilled and tapped some wood screws into the upper bush so I could pull it out. Unfortunately (my fault) I damaged this swivel bush on removal, so will have to replace this if I am to re-assemble this old swivel for future use or selling. Once the upper bush was removed, final dismantling was relatively straightforward (more circlips). Inside, I found a horrible mess of congealed grease and water; no wonder it had jammed.

I approached Facnor for a spare bush and lip seals - they were not interested. The UK agent apologised and was able to tell me the bushes were made by IGUS. I contacted IGUS who were helpful, suggested the plastic was likely Igldur J material, but the bush was a non standard part and all they could do was quote for a machined replacement from solid bar - £170 for one or circa £80 each if ordering 10 !! So far, I have not pursued this further, need to find a cheaper source somehow. The part is simple, 63.8 id, 81.2 od and 24.7mm long, parallel sided, but need to get a plastic with reasonable bearing strength, low friction and and minimal water and thermal expansion properties (UHWMPE?).

Meantime, I decided to remove the lower drum over the winter to service it. I found it to be a very similar the same design as the swivel with similar press fit bushes. This time I took a more measured approach and carefully drilled and tapped 2 x M3 threaded holes to 10mm depth at opposing positions on the bush, this has not affected the bush as the wall thickness is 8.8mm. I screwed in 2 longish M3 bolts and set up a pulling mechanism - it took some persuasion to pull out against the friction fit, but did come out with no damage and I intend to reuse it. So I would suggest this approach is sound for anyone attempting the same. Again, inside I found stainless ball bearings bearing onto pressed steel plates, lots of horrible water and grease residue, but no permanent damage and nothing too difficult to clean and re-grease. I am now seeking a source for replacement lip seals so I can re-assemble to fit again in the spring.

I have taken lots of photos and planning to write this up for whom ever may find this useful - the line from Facnor is these units are not serviceable but I believe with some reasonable DIY skills, is certainly do-able.

I am not very familiar with the specification of lip seals, and would appreciate advice as to what I have and how to specify a UK SOURCED replacement? The drum lip seal is made by CHO (Taiwanese) TCF 55x73x7 in size (P/N 04524). Not sure of material, it has a steel shell fully encased in the seal material with a stainless steel lip spring. I cannot find a UK agent for CHO, so have emailed them to ask. The swivel lip seal is also CHO , same construction but a different size TCF 63x81x7 (P/N 04522).

here is one Shaft Oil Seals TC55x73x7 and the other Oil Seals, Shaft Seals and Rotary Seals Online Store and Supplier

 

[West Coast]

here is one Shaft Oil Seals TC55x73x7 and the other Oil Seals, Shaft Seals and Rotary Seals Online Store and Supplier

Thanks, that’s exactly the right size, however hoping to find a UK supplier. I looked at 4 UK seal supplier websites last night, no luck with the size needed. There are some at 10mm thick but these will not fit as they will foul the drum cover plates

 

[Beneteau381]

Thanks, that’s exactly the right size, however hoping to find a UK supplier. I looked at 4 UK seal supplier websites last night, no luck with the size needed. There are some at 10mm thick but these will not fit as they will foul the drum cover plates

I know, I checked before a few months ago, Facnor seem to be particularly obtuse with odd sizes! Maybe some lathe skills or ownership needed!

 

[West Coast]

There seems to be a company in the Netherlands who sell CHO seal products, going to try them. Have also messaged CHO in Taiwan asking for uk or European suppliers. It’s a pity Facnor are so unhelpful

 

[West Coast]

Just to advise that I have finally sourced replacement lip seals for both the swivel and drum - Ashton Seals UK are able to supply, lead time 4 - 6 weeks or so. There is a min order of 5 for each size.

On my LS180, swivel lip seal size is 63x81x7 and for the drum 55x73x7. You need to ask Ashton for the R23 EPDM type, with stainless steel spring.

I have just ordered drum swivels today so will report back when I have these, and have reassembled the drum.

 

[rbhun]

Hi all

fist thank you for this wealth of information. I have a 2013 OC411 with a Facnor SD180 and C38 top swivel. I was able to take the top apart quite easily, with pliers and clean it nicely. However I can’t take the drum apart. I took the 4 screws off top and bottom, removed the top seals and the first spring,but I cannot access the bottom. I can’t take the bottom part with the two wire guides for the rope off.I removed the two screws from the side and tried to press it off but that doesn’t help. Does that part come off? Looking inside from the bottom it looks like the end of the wires are jamming that piece on the profile. How do you remove that? Thanks.

 

[Mickyfinn]

Hi!

The Facnor C38 halyard swivel of my SD180 furler system got from sticky to stuck with time. That is ok after 17 years in service. Still I would like to redo it now instead of spending an astonishing sum of money to Facnor for new ones.
For me, the problem doing that is with the spare parts : Identifying the correct dimensions without pulling apart my Drum. And: Tracking down sources.
Following is a collection of my informtion so far. Please help me complete it.

Much information was taken from this excellent thread, dealing with refurbishing a Facnor SD165 system. The most important information besides dimensions I personally got out of that one was that it is indeed possible to refurbish the facnor system. Thanks guys over there.


Refurbish Swivel C38/R24 (for Facnor SD180 Furler system):
According to the Facnor 2018 pircelist, which contains a swivel drawing, the following is needed to refurbish:

2 x External Circlip Stainless Steel 58mm
Source: External Circlip (1400) Stainless Steel 58mm Shaft

1 x Internal Circlip Stainless Steel 75mm
Source: Internal Circlip (1300) Stainless Steel 75mm Shaft

1 x Internal Circlip Stainless Steel 72mm
Source: Internal Circlip (1300) Stainless Steel 72mm Shaft

2 x thrust roller ball bearing stainless steel: 58mm x76mm x9mm dxDxB (Inner Diameter x Outer Diameter x width)
Source: ??
OR:
dimensions of the balls and source ??



Refurbish Drum D180:
I did not find any dimensions. According to the drawing, these parts are needed, from top to bottom:
Oil seal (dimensions COULD be: 6x76x8mm Source COULD be: 56x76x8mm Nitrile Rubber Rotary Shaft Oil Seal with Garter Spring R23 / TC Simply Bearings Ltd
circlip Dimensions? Source?
Thrust roller ball bearing stainless steel
circlip Dimensions? Source?
circlip Dimensions? Source?
Thrust roller ball bearing stainless steel Dimensions? Source?
circlip Dimensions? Source?
Oil seal Dimensions? Source?



You see, there are still a couple of questionmarks. Very much appreciated if you...
...can you please supply dimensions of the swivel bearings balls?
...can you please supply dimensions for all parts of the Drum D180?
...can you please supply a source for bearings, balls, oil seals, circlips if above are missing/ faulty.



This is for a 2003 Beneteau 423 by the way.

Thanks a lot.
Pferdi

Hi there .......... I have a Facnor SD180 on my Dufour 40 that I am about to service.

I am surprised about the possibility of not grease packing the main drum bearings, as mine were completely full when I serviced them a few years ago. I rebuilt the drum with much less grease.

Is there an update on spare/replacement parts availability from third party suppliers (eg SimplyBearings)? I damaged the drum seals on removal and could not source replacements the same size. I had to use seals 1mm smaller in diameter and work grease into the edges as best I could.

What about the success for failure of replacing the lower drum bearing balls (steel) with Delrin? My research a few years ago concluded that replacing SS bearings with Delrin without also replacing the bearing surfaces would cause Delrin to "deconstruct"!
Any update from anyone who has done this?

What about the top swivel? Mine had light grease when first taken apart, so I cleaned and rebuilt it with grease again ...... but it seems that no grease at all is ok? Any update on how that has worked over time?

A list of parts and sizes (I found measuring balls to be impossible), would be great.

All comment is gold dust !!!!!

Mike (Helensburgh, Scotland)

 

[Mickyfinn]

Hi!

The Facnor C38 halyard swivel of my SD180 furler system got from sticky to stuck with time. That is ok after 17 years in service. Still I would like to redo it now instead of spending an astonishing sum of money to Facnor for new ones.
For me, the problem doing that is with the spare parts : Identifying the correct dimensions without pulling apart my Drum. And: Tracking down sources.
Following is a collection of my informtion so far. Please help me complete it.

Much information was taken from this excellent thread, dealing with refurbishing a Facnor SD165 system. The most important information besides dimensions I personally got out of that one was that it is indeed possible to refurbish the facnor system. Thanks guys over there.


Refurbish Swivel C38/R24 (for Facnor SD180 Furler system):
According to the Facnor 2018 pircelist, which contains a swivel drawing, the following is needed to refurbish:

2 x External Circlip Stainless Steel 58mm
Source: External Circlip (1400) Stainless Steel 58mm Shaft

1 x Internal Circlip Stainless Steel 75mm
Source: Internal Circlip (1300) Stainless Steel 75mm Shaft

1 x Internal Circlip Stainless Steel 72mm
Source: Internal Circlip (1300) Stainless Steel 72mm Shaft

2 x thrust roller ball bearing stainless steel: 58mm x76mm x9mm dxDxB (Inner Diameter x Outer Diameter x width)
Source: ??
OR:
dimensions of the balls and source ??



Refurbish Drum D180:
I did not find any dimensions. According to the drawing, these parts are needed, from top to bottom:
Oil seal (dimensions COULD be: 6x76x8mm Source COULD be: 56x76x8mm Nitrile Rubber Rotary Shaft Oil Seal with Garter Spring R23 / TC Simply Bearings Ltd
circlip Dimensions? Source?
Thrust roller ball bearing stainless steel
circlip Dimensions? Source?
circlip Dimensions? Source?
Thrust roller ball bearing stainless steel Dimensions? Source?
circlip Dimensions? Source?
Oil seal Dimensions? Source?



You see, there are still a couple of questionmarks. Very much appreciated if you...
...can you please supply dimensions of the swivel bearings balls?
...can you please supply dimensions for all parts of the Drum D180?
...can you please supply a source for bearings, balls, oil seals, circlips if above are missing/ faulty.



This is for a 2003 Beneteau 423 by the way.

Thanks a lot.
Pferdi

 

[vyv_cox]

Hi there .......... I have a Facnor SD180 on my Dufour 40 that I am about to service.

I am surprised about the possibility of not grease packing the main drum bearings, as mine were completely full when I serviced them a few years ago. I rebuilt the drum with much less grease.

Is there an update on spare/replacement parts availability from third party suppliers (eg SimplyBearings)? I damaged the drum seals on removal and could not source replacements the same size. I had to use seals 1mm smaller in diameter and work grease into the edges as best I could.

What about the success for failure of replacing the lower drum bearing balls (steel) with Delrin? My research a few years ago concluded that replacing SS bearings with Delrin without also replacing the bearing surfaces would cause Delrin to "deconstruct"!
Any update from anyone who has done this?

What about the top swivel? Mine had light grease when first taken apart, so I cleaned and rebuilt it with grease again ...... but it seems that no grease at all is ok? Any update on how that has worked over time?

A list of parts and sizes (I found measuring balls to be impossible), would be great.

All comment is gold dust !!!!!

Mike (Helensburgh, Scotland)

The design of the upper swivel has changed. My original one bought in 2003 was open with no seals or grease. Its replacement bought in 2017 is a more sophisticated device, grease filled and sealed, much heavier and more expensive.