Refitting job #1

[npf1]

>... "usual" micro-diamonds GRP surface ... I wish I already had that type of deck finishing:

I'm pretty sure you can buy it in great big sheets. By that, I mean 8' x 4' thin fibreglass sheets in white with non-slip on one side. It's a while since I've seen them so can't suggest where to find them, but I have seen offcuts several times in the past at various boat repair places.

 

[stillwaters]

J, do you have any experience with that product?
As I understood, in the video they are suggesting to put it above the "usual" micro-diamonds GRP surface which you can find embedded in most mainstream GRP decks.
Which seems weird, sort of. I mean, I wish I already had that type of deck finishing, i which case I would do nothing at all!
Yes, it can be difficult to clean sometimes, depending on what sort of dirt gets stuck inside the diamond shaped surface.
But it's as practical and longlasting as it can be - not to mention that it doesn't get hot at all.
Putting another layer of some resin stuff on top of that doesn't make a lot of sense imho... Or am I missing something?

As I said, P, I've no idea if sealers are actually worth bothering with. However, I did think that they were at least worth a consideration in view of the anti-skid finish that you might ultimately end up with, as well as maybe also producing some feedback from anyone who has used them. Certainly nothing so far has suggested that you are likely to end up with a similar surface to the one in the Surefoot video, which in my own experience is just one of the types I've encountered anyway. I've noticed that some original anti-skid finishes seem more prone to collect dirt than some others do, my own boat being just one case in point. Of course, hopefully whatever surface you settle on will be easy to keep clean, however, if it is one of the 'pulled' finishes such as a roller applied one like KiwiGrip, even if you use a finer roller so as not to get too peaked a result, I would have though a non-slip sealer might prove particularly useful. Sealers though, are surely the least of your considerations at the moment.

 

[jfm]

Yup, spot on.
But I'm wondering, what is in practice the difference between the Nordie/Itama job and an ex-post refitting?
I mean, as I understand both those deck finishing were NOT done in-mould (so to speak), but applied afterwards instead.
So, aside from teak stripping, why should it be so different to do that as a refit rather than during build...?

There is no difference, aside from teak stripping. Teak stripping is THE issue. The current teak panel covers the whole deck surface and ~8mm up the edges. When you remove the teak you damage the gelcoat. That is ok where you will apply the kiwi grip paint, but for the 10mm borders and corners you want gloss white gelcoat, and that might need a lot of labour. Repairing gelcoat on a flat or slightly convex area isn't too difficult, but repainting it in a tight concave corner, as you will have all along the edges (x 40m?) is a lot of work.

The alternative of not getting the gelcoat smooth and sloshing kiwi grip right to, and up, the edges requires less labour but doesn't look as good.

 

[npf1]

... sloshing kiwi grip right to, and up, the edges requires less labour but doesn't look as good.

Yep. From experience ... bad idea because it's the edges where the dirt then accumulates. And the edges are a whole lot more difficult to clean when they've been kiwi gripped.

 

[npf1]

To clarify ... it worked well on the convex edges, but not on the concave edges. Overall, it looked good, just difficult to keep some parts clean.

Some pics here if interested http://www.jryachts.com/boat-details?boatid=1003780

 

[stillwaters]

Yep. From experience ... bad idea because it's the edges where the dirt then accumulates. And the edges are a whole lot more difficult to clean when they've been kiwi gripped.

Hence the use of a sealer, maybe?

 

[benjenbav]

LOL, I'm not surprised to see the debate sliding towards teak, either natural or synthetic. In fact, I'm wondering when also cork will be mentioned...
Feel free to discuss all that, it's interesting stuff, with pros and cons for each alternative - each to their own on that!

But probably I wasn't clear enough in my initial question, which so far has been addressed properly only by petem in his post #11.
Let me rephrase what my questions were:
1. which is the best material for creating a surface akin to, and hopefully as durable and maintenance free as, the one used in most decks of D/SD boats - see Nordhavn example below;
2. how to "design" the antiskid surface, i.e. color (as close as possible to the existing gelcoat, or different) and borders (if any).
All of that considering also the deck layout with its hatches, as per previous pics.

Mind, I'm far from pretending to convince everybody that the route I'm taking is the absolute best, and I fully understand the reasons why some of you are suggesting alternatives.
But it's my route for good - on my boat, that teak is a goner.
It's neither a matter of "if" nor "when", just of "how"? :encouragement:

I had a similar surface to that in this picture on the foredeck and side decks of an Aquastar that I owned for seven years and I always secretly wished it would've been teak. But it was never any trouble; it was easy to clean, maintenance-free and it did the non-slip thing exactly as it said on the tin so it was never something I got around to changing.

I would be concerned as to how easy it will be to get the white borders looking shiny and smooth when the teak is pulled up; easier in the areas where the grey non-slip mat is being laid to cover any minor blemishes, should there be any.

 

[MapisM]

Then get the deck re gelcoated with the diamond tread pattern. It maybe expensive but it's a permanent fix and never has to be redone

I'm pretty sure you can buy it in great big sheets. By that, I mean 8' x 4' thin fibreglass sheets in white with non-slip on one side. It's a while since I've seen them so can't suggest where to find them, but I have seen offcuts several times in the past at various boat repair places.

Nah, I don't like these solutions.
"Re-gelcoating" with the diamonds pattern, afaik, is practically impossible - but more than happy to stand corrected, if anyone knows better.

Otoh, glueing thin GRP pre-patterned sheets is feasible - and by using the same or slightly higher thickness of the existing teak, it would also be a solution for the borders which are possibly ruined after the teak removal.
But on a couple of boats I've seen which were refitted in that way, after just a few years you could see some cracks along the borders and the sheets joints.
In one of these boats, I could even feel by walking around that these sheets began to slightly detach from the deck underneath in places - which is bound to get rapidly worse, as condensation/moisture finds its way between the two layers.

I suppose these problems can appear more or less extensively/quickly depending on how well the job is done, but I don't see it as a durable solution anyway...
...and getting rid forever of one concern is what I'm after, not changing its nature!

 

[MapisM]

for the 10mm borders and corners you want gloss white gelcoat, and that might need a lot of labour

Point taken, I agree that having the non-skid paint going up vertically 10mm or so along all the edges would never look as kosher as the Nordhavn above - particularly with a color of the non-skid paint very different from the gelcoat.

Let me try a bit of lateral thinking.
The deck mould (as can be seen in the pics) has a raised border all around the edges - IIRC, 20mm or so above the current teak level.
And on the internal side of the walkaround, also the superstructure has a distinct border at its bottom, with a similar height, running all around its base.
What if I would get covered with the antiskid paint not just the horizontal surfaces, but also ALL of that vertical border?
I mean, not just the 10mm ruined by gelcoat removal, but also the remaining 20mm, up to where that border ends.
Don't you think it might appear better finished, if not even purposedly done that way?
Probably, in this case a different color would look fugly, but I don't think it would be a big deal to match the gelcoat closely enough to almost not notice the difference...

 

[jfm]

Let me try a bit of lateral thinking.
The deck mould (as can be seen in the pics) has a raised border all around the edges - IIRC, 20mm or so above the current teak level.
And on the internal side of the walkaround, also the superstructure has a distinct border at its bottom, with a similar height, running all around its base.
What if I would get covered with the antiskid paint not just the horizontal surfaces, but also ALL of that vertical border?
I mean, not just the 10mm ruined by gelcoat removal, but also the remaining 20mm, up to where that border ends.
Don't you think it might appear better finished, if not even purposedly done that way?
Probably, in this case a different color would look fugly, but I don't think it would be a big deal to match the gelcoat closely enough to almost not notice the difference...

Lateral thinking is to be encouraged here, but my $0.02 is that taking the paint up the full 30 mm would look fugly. You're still going to have a masking tape line both sides, but now higher, and arguably more prominent @30mm than @10mm up. It's going to look like you're covering up something bad. Also, I wouldn't love the idea of rubbing the outside of my little toe along a rough/sandpaper-ish surface as I go quickly/carelessly/drunkenly along the side decks, which would happen much less @10m than 30mm. And finally the paint does attract dirt, which is better kept on a flat surface than a vertical surface imho

When I was at the Arno/ leopard factory in 2002 watching the build of tcm's Ls23, I noticed they did a lot of gelcoat spraying. After you have removed the teak and filled any big holes but not all the small scratches, you could maybe have gelcoat sprayed up to the 30mm line you describe. Then the mask tape edges get polished out. Then you would have a smooth surface to do the "nordie style" kiwigrip paint, with 20mm margins, radiused corners, and "rectangle patches" layout. I'm thinking that spraying gelcoat is easier than hand finishing 40m long of concave tight corner

I have no idea of cost of that. Also the yard would want to remove the railings to get access - that looks easy enough but you might want to check.

PS, besides all the above, routing those catch plates and hinges (for the three bow locker doors) down into the surface of the GRP isn't a trivial task. I realise you definitely do not want teak but are you 100% sure you can't live with decking2000?

 

[MapisM]

I realise you definitely do not want teak but are you 100% sure you can't live with decking2000?

I could, TBH - but here it's swmbo that wouldn't.
The boat still has black caulking teak in the cockpit and in the swim platform.
The former still original and decent, while the latter obviously was the first to wear out, but the previous owner already had it rebuilt a couple of years ago - otherwise I would have given it the same treatment!
So, I understand her point when she says that anything else than teak would look like chalk and cheese...
Btw, for some reason I think that cork only looks nice with white-ish caulking, though the difference would be very obvious also with black, anyway.

Good idea ref spraying gelcoat before the antiskid.
I'll check all the alternatives also with Mr.DP asap, but it will take a while.
Tomorrow I must go to take care also of the old tub, for a week or so.
In the meantime, thanks everybody for all the suggestions! :encouragement:

 

[petem]

Have you considered something like this - http://www.bolidt.com. They had that on a brand new cruise ship I was on a couple of years ago. Non slip, comfortable to walk on, hard wearing and easy to clean.

 

[jfm]

I could, TBH - but here it's swmbo that wouldn't.
The boat still has black caulking teak in the cockpit and in the swim platform.
The former still original and decent, while the latter obviously was the first to wear out, but the previous owner already had it rebuilt a couple of years ago - otherwise I would have given it the same treatment!
So, I understand her point when she says that anything else than teak would look like chalk and cheese...
Btw, for some reason I think that cork only looks nice with white-ish caulking, though the difference would be very obvious also with black, anyway.

Good idea ref spraying gelcoat before the antiskid.
I'll check all the alternatives also with Mr.DP asap, but it will take a while.
Tomorrow I must go to take care also of the old tub, for a week or so.
In the meantime, thanks everybody for all the suggestions! :encouragement:

Ah, ok, I get the chalk/cheese point - if you're keeping teak aft then yes paint is better on side decks.
I hope you have a nice Azzurro week. You're like my brother: 200% occupied by looking after two boats eek!
Are you transferring the name Azzurro--> DP?

 

[Bouba]

Have you considered something like this - http://www.bolidt.com. They had that on a brand new cruise ship I was on a couple of years ago. Non slip, comfortable to walk on, hard wearing and easy to clean.

The website gives the impression it's for big applications only. If you can convince Capital R to try it, maybe MapisM could get some off cuts

 

[Hurricane]

I could, TBH - but here it's swmbo that wouldn't.
The boat still has black caulking teak in the cockpit and in the swim platform.
The former still original and decent, while the latter obviously was the first to wear out, but the previous owner already had it rebuilt a couple of years ago - otherwise I would have given it the same treatment!
So, I understand her point when she says that anything else than teak would look like chalk and cheese...
Btw, for some reason I think that cork only looks nice with white-ish caulking, though the difference would be very obvious also with black, anyway.

For reference - Cork decking with black caulking looks like this:-

 

[MapisM]

The website gives the impression it's for big applications only. If you can convince Capital R to try it, maybe MapisM could get some off cuts

LOL, I was going to reply to petem after checking his link, then I saw your post. You read my mind!
I'm not sure because it wasn't specifically mentioned, but I had a distinct impression that the stuff is meant to cover steel decks...

 

[MapisM]

Ah, ok, I get the chalk/cheese point - if you're keeping teak aft then yes paint is better on side decks.
I hope you have a nice Azzurro week. You're like my brother: 200% occupied by looking after two boats eek!
Are you transferring the name Azzurro--> DP?

LOL, I guess SD is even more busy than myself, if size is anything to go by...

Nope, both boats are keeping their names - well, the Azzurro till she'll be sold, anyway.
Actually, I never bothered renaming any of the boats I bought used - not because I care so much about all the usual stories about boat names and bad luck, mind. But I'm lazy!
Besides, the current DP name is very nice, reminding both Venice and its lagoon (though in IT, I'm afraid) and both myself and S love it! :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

For reference - Cork decking with black caulking looks like this

Thanks M, nice to see both together.
Btw, don't get me wrong: I didn't mean that black caulking looks bad with cork - in fact it doesn't, on your Novu! :encouragement:
I just feel that with any material whose appearance is obviously different from teak, the caulking might as well be different from the "traditional" look.
And that's me, anyway...

 

[vas]

Lateral thinking is to be encouraged here, but my $0.02 is that taking the paint up the full 30 mm would look fugly. You're still going to have a masking tape line both sides, but now higher, and arguably more prominent @30mm than @10mm up. It's going to look like you're covering up something bad. Also, I wouldn't love the idea of rubbing the outside of my little toe along a rough/sandpaper-ish surface as I go quickly/carelessly/drunkenly along the side decks, which would happen much less @10m than 30mm. And finally the paint does attract dirt, which is better kept on a flat surface than a vertical surface imho

If I may, +1000 on JFM above!

dirt attraction of the antiskid is phenomenal, water drains at the edges, edges HAVE to be smooth, don't want a messy deck AND an awfully messy edging of it, trust me...

when are we going to get a decent thread with pics of the new boat then? I guess in a fortnight, eh?

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

Ok, understood. There goes the edges idea!

Sorry V, it'll take me a while for the report, I'm afraid.
All the pics I took during the inspection and seatrial were essentially meant as memos for things to do, and they are useless for a decent "Let me introduce my new pride and joy" thread.
I'll be back onboard in 10 days or so, and will try to take some better pics, but also some refitting jobs will start soon, hopefully...
And after all, we are still waiting the same sort of thread for another new entry in the asylum - i.e. a stunning Aquastar 74!

Meanwhile, I can post the following bit of virtual refitting that I just finished, as an appetizer.
Wadduthink, guys?