Red - you are responsible for cleaning your tanks!!!

[Gludy]

Well according todays MBM Customes are stating that boat owners are responsible for cleaning their boats out of red diesel!!!!

Now in the sumission document to the EU the government put the cost of this at £1000 per boat. They have stated they would start dipping tanks straight away, once the red is banned for pleasure boats. They could not answer what they will do if a boat fills up in the CI's.

So it seems that the government was just pretending when it properly outlined all the ptoblems to the EU. They now ignore their own advice, their own conclusions and apply the dead hand of the law.

In effect you be fined even by being stoppped and having to prove the trail or of they consider you have put it in after the ban face having your boat confiscated --- all sounds we are set for a right mess. Then of course if you go to France you face probably the same thing with even less understanding.

All this even if you have obeyed the law - you face problems for years as red purges through your system and by the way is it even worth taking on CI fuel? They may argue that some of the fuel was for consumption in UK waters and you did not declare it on the way back into UK waters.

No explanations on how a charter boat one day can use red and the next day not of course.

It is really against all justice that we are going to have to incur high costs in purging system that were loaded with legal fuel.

What a total mess.

 

[ccscott49]

What?? Has red diesel been banned? I didnt hear this, sorry if I'm being dim.

 

[Whitelighter]

This raises several questions:

1) What about red diesel legally purchased befor the law is enforced? In some cases this could sit in tanks for years.

2) I can still legally buy red diesel in Jersey. If I have a receipt, again this could sit in the tank for years if I don't use the boat

3) My boat does charter work. The Sea School and Charter Business can fill up on red, again re-staining the tank. Perfectly legal, so how do they propose to deal with these cases.

That is just three off the top of my head. I'm sure their are more.

What is the fine for using red? I heard that they could only charge you the duty for the fuel in the tank. If that is so, its worth the risk. Or are HMRC going to have a fleet of shiney new ribs to go chasing private boaters in?

 

[mjf]

I think I might put a blue dye in my tanks then, so I will have purple fuel.

Can then check other boats near mine to see if they have been naughty and syphoning my mdo.

 

[rubberduck]

Can you sink a shiney rib with a shiney air gun /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[duncan]

Come on Paul, unlike you to confuse an argument................

As the fuel you purchase in the CIs, or France, is already white they are complete red herrings.

 

[rickp]

I thought it was white in Guernsey, but red in Jersey?

Rick

 

[clivew05]

well Im sure that this is not yet enforced as NO marina that I have come across sells anything other than red and our local Marina has heard nothing on the subject - does this then mean that I cannot use my boat at all or do I have to tow - it (36ft) to a local garage and fill it up.

Im sure that none of this enforcement can be legally done before they have provided alternatives which they have not - and the last report that I read and was backed up by my marina said that nothing would happen for at least a year ... so I shall be filling up with red as thats all thats available .... and if they try anything with me you may hear of sunken HMRC ribs littering the east coast ..... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[Kilter]

On my little saily boat I have a tank full of legally bought red diseaseoil. Being as how she's a saily boat and I often sail on and off moorings and anchorages I expect a tank to last me the best part of a year. Why should I chuck away perfectly good fuel? Seems daft!

 

[Gludy]

I think it is red in Jersey!!!
Come on Duncan .... you have been there more than me! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Gludy]

The MBM article is talking about when red goes at say the end of the year.
The customs response on us being responsible to clean out our systems indicates their attitude towards the problem. The Custom's lack of response to questions such as filling up with Red form the CI also indicates an attitude.

My point is that the paper from the government to the EU was very good and pointed out costs such as £1000 per boat to clean out the red etc. Those very points seem now to be ignored.

The questions already posed on this thread such as charter and red one day personal and hence white the next are not be responded to by Customs - we just have an early indication of their total lack of understanding in stating that they see no problems in policing the red issue once it comes in - the government paper stated it was almost impossible to police.

 

[Gludy]

Duncan
As regards france - if the UK govenrment is insisting on no traces of red in tanks then if there is any trace found by the french you have no chance of getting out of it.
Customs state they can see no problems in policing this as we are responsible for cleaning out our systems yet in practice every bao twill have red in for a long time.

 

[clivew05]

Perhaps then MBM should now be petitioning the government for the £1000 per boat to clean the tanks .... im sure that they will just ignore it as usual (and who said we live in a democracy) but it may put yet another point across to them ... a possible loss to the treasury of £1000,000's before they even start to rake it in through the tax ..... again there may be loads of customs RIBS littering the coast line .... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[rubberduck]

Is there any reason that you cannot issue legal proceedings against HMRC if they do try to enforce rules unreasonably?

 

[clivew05]

New standard safety equipment is a harpoon just in case you encounter a customs RIB ... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[fireball]

This sounds like another scare story so once a cheaper alternative is introduced (still far more than we're currently paying) we're grateful ...

bit like the bully saying "I'm gonna break both your legs" and then only punching you in the face ... are you going to thank the bully?!

 

[clivew05]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any reason that you cannot issue legal proceedings against HMRC if they do try to enforce rules unreasonably?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that what seems to be forgotten here is that we are supposed to be in a democracy where the public decides poilcy, thats why we have an opportunity to elect our representatives in government - yet despite the"publics" wishes the government seem to be taking the communist approach and saying well "up yours public were going to do it anyway" therefore I guess that if you tried to sue the HMRC unles you picked a judge that had a bif 74ft motor cruiser that was just as enraged as the rest of us - I dont think that it would work - after all these are the people that take 72% of our salary without doing anything for it in the first place then ttry to find other ways of taking the rest off of us ..... napalm sounds good to me at the moment ..... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[Gludy]

If by following the law and using red before the ban, you can get into trouble after the ban then there may be a legal point as its in effect retrospective legislation. How can you be fined for staying within the law?

Yet in practice they state they will start dipping straight away and see no enforecment problems. The paper to the EU stated they see major enforcement problems. This is why you cannot trust them an inch, in fact not trust them at all.

I can forsee boats being confsicated because you have not satisfied them that the red in your tanks was purchased before the change in the law.

If they cannot see eneforcment problems then that can only mean they are stupid and will blindly apply the law.

I can see traces of red being in tanks for many years.

 

[Nautorius]

My Diesel Heating and Cooking fuel (allowed to be red) comes off the same tank. Does this mean I have the expense of buying and fitting a seperate tank, cleaning the old and paying more for diesel!!!!

Better not pay off the marine mortgage as it is then their responsibility if it gets impounded!

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ccscott49]

If they ban red diesel, are they going to "harmonise" the price (tax on) of road diesel down to the same as our european cousins?