Red Diesel

[Quandary]

And do not forget the numerous cars and other vehicles driving on red diesel when not entitled.... grew up in Derry, a quick nip over the border and less than a mile would be signs on the road side "Cheap diesel", and it was throughout the wonderful luscious green land wide and far, signs aplenty. There were more farms offering cheap diesel than there were official "petrol stations" selling legally, I am sure of it.
!

All that cheap diesel was probably laundered and full of acid, while it did not happen in Derry if you had driven to Ballymena you would have encountered two men in a van at the Larne Road roundabout with the power to dip tanks and confiscate vehicles.

A builder client of mine was caught in his 4x4 Mercedes, he rang his wife to come and take him home, stressing without explaining that she should use their daughters car, she ignored his advice and came in her Merc. lost two cars in one day and had to get a taxi.

 

[awol]

I'm sure that when I got diesel from Tobermory in August red was actually more expensive than white diesel. The explanation was the subsidy on island road diesel from our government.
Availability is indeed the problem and that can depend on who you know. Remote communities usually find a way to fill their needs but may not share these with strangers.

 

[st599]

A boat is non road use so why should we pay road duty?

What has that got to do with the CJEU outcome? The question was not related to tax but the use of marked diesel.

 

[LadyInBed]

Sounds like a case for registering the boat in CI's, they have no problems using red on trips to France.

 

[maby]

Sounds like a case for registering the boat in CI's, they have no problems using red on trips to France.

The French have not been particularly militant about it thus far - it's been the Belgies that have taken offence.

 

[Thistle]

How long will it take to remove all the red marker from our tanks?

 

[MoodySabre]

How long will it take to remove all the red marker from our tanks?

If you don’t empty your tank completely before filling up with white then the answer is many years. Empty it, have it cleaned professionally or run the risk. In four long trips to Holland I’ve never been stopped for anything. Will they target British boats? The French and Belgies maybe. The Dutch-can’t imagine it as they like us.

 

[chrishscorp]

What has that got to do with the CJEU outcome? The question was not related to tax but the use of marked diesel.

+1

It is not the rate of duty that is the issue...... It is the use of the marking dye.

You can pay £25 a litre for your red diesel and wave the receipt you will still fall foul of the regs, as indeed will Ireland.
The question now is for those of us who do wish to travel to EU ports where ever they may be, how do we clean the red dye out of the system indeed is it even possible ? If it is tested another forumite previously said it could be tested and picked up to 3ppm.

 

[CalicoJack]

Ignoring the financial implications, not easy I agree, but will we still be able to buy FAME free diesel?

 

[Kerenza]

surely once the govt. incorporates this into uk law it will be illegal to use dyed diesel here.
in which case will it be enforced? And tben cleaning tanks becomes a realityfor everyone.

 

[maby]

If you don’t empty your tank completely before filling up with white then the answer is many years. ....

That is not true. The papers supporting the EU directive specify the maximum and minimum concentration of marker that should be added to fuel and the sensitivity of the test to be applied. From those figures, it is possible to calculate how long it will take to get the level of marker in your system below the detection threshold - we did those sums a couple of years ago and the results were discussed on a thread on these forums. Each time you refill with unmarked fuel, you reduce the concentration of marker - obviously it is the case that you get your tank legal most quickly by running the fuel level low before refilling. Most of us will not want to run it down to a few litres for fear of running out - I don't remember the exact figures any more, but it worked out that if you ran the tank down to one quarter full, then refilled with unmarked fuel, you would be legal within a small number of cycles - something like three or four.

 

[Blue Sunray]

you would be legal within a small number of cycles - something like three or four.

Even if that is correct, that's two to three years plus at current rates of usage for some.

 

[Minchsailor]

I would be more concerned about the risk of more remote harbours like Gairloch or Lochinver stopping sales to leisure craft than having to pay 10% more. Availability trumps price ?

+1 for that. As somebody who rarely sails south of Ardnamurchan, I am much more worried about the ability to fill up - I normally take 80-100l at a time. There is nowhere that has a 'white' diesel near the water, and even using cans would need some form of transport. Outer Hebrides is even worse.

 

[Daydream believer]

surely once the govt. incorporates this into uk law it will be illegal to use dyed diesel here.
in which case will it be enforced? And tben cleaning tanks becomes a realityfor everyone.

Depending on the deal done with the EU it may not have to become law. If so, we will be treated as, say, an American flagged vessel visiting the EU which can legally carry marked fuel. International law becoming the overruling factor.
Of course if the deal (& I am not suggesting a debate on Brexit here) aligns us to the EU then we may have to change.
There is also the problem of the interim period.
What do marina suppliers do? Do they change their supply systems, for what might possibly be a short period, or do they just stop supplying for a while until they know if they really have to change or not. If not then they just carry on as usual.
How long will the UK give the suppliers to change? If it is, say, 3 years, then should they wait, because if we no longer have to abide by EU rules it will have been a waste of money changing.

As for yachtsmen, it is no big deal to do what I have done, clean the tank (a useful exercise) & use white for a while, carried to the boat in 20 litre cans. I have done this for the last 5 years &, because I am in a marina it has been easy. Boats on moorings probably take the fuel to their boat in cans anyway.
I sail to France & Belgium most of my sailing season so as soon as I get to Boulogne etc I fill up. Many yachts claim to use little fuel so the cost element is small.
Of course the real problem is for MOBOs & larger fuel users such as motor sailors.

 

[Daydream believer]

+1 for that. As somebody who rarely sails south of Ardnamurchan, I am much more worried about the ability to fill up - I normally take 80-100l at a time. There is nowhere that has a 'white' diesel near the water, and even using cans would need some form of transport. Outer Hebrides is even worse.

How often do you fill up? I have 8- 20 litre cans of fuel at home & if I need some fuel I take a can & top up so it never gets much below the 20 L mark. That saves lugging lots of cans in one go.

 

[awol]

Depending on the deal done with the EU it may not have to become law. If so, we will be treated as, say, an American flagged vessel visiting the EU which can legally carry marked fuel. International law becoming the overruling factor.

ISTR a couple of USA flagged yachts being fined big money in Kiel for having marked fuel a few years back. Whether the fines stood or were refunded I dinnae ken.
AIUI the Istanbul convention absolves foreign vessels with marked fuel on entry to the EU but once in, movements between countries may be open to prosecution.

 

[chrishscorp]

ISTR a couple of USA flagged yachts being fined big money in Kiel for having marked fuel a few years back. Whether the fines stood or were refunded I dinnae ken.
AIUI the Istanbul convention absolves foreign vessels with marked fuel on entry to the EU but once in, movements between countries may be open to prosecution.

I seem to remember an American MOBO arriving in Germany, being fined some 8000 euros based on the capacity of the tanks not the quantity carried, they paid then began a proccess of legal action trying to claim it back.

 

[maby]

ISTR a couple of USA flagged yachts being fined big money in Kiel for having marked fuel a few years back. Whether the fines stood or were refunded I dinnae ken.
AIUI the Istanbul convention absolves foreign vessels with marked fuel on entry to the EU but once in, movements between countries may be open to prosecution.

I think the critical factor is the duration of the stay - a lot of these exemptions to local law which apply to foreign vessels relate to what is described in international law as "Innocent Passage". You can claim exemption from local laws if you are passing through, possibly including stopping briefly in port, but if you stay for any length of time, then you have to accept the local laws.

 

[lw395]

I think the critical factor is the duration of the stay - a lot of these exemptions to local law which apply to foreign vessels relate to what is described in international law as "Innocent Passage". You can claim exemption from local laws if you are passing through, possibly including stopping briefly in port, but if you stay for any length of time, then you have to accept the local laws.

That's my understanding too. But I don't know where the boundary between innocently visiting the the EU and 'temporary importation' is.

 

[Blue Sunray]

an American flagged vessel visiting the EU which can legally carry marked fuel. International law becoming the overruling factor.

Wrong, unless they are exercising the right to innocent passage (which does not include a stopping at a port).