Red Diesel

[Laysula]

Just found this post on the Torquay marina facebook site.
Torquay Marina





1 hr ·







Court of Justice of the European Union rules against HMRC over red diesel.
Impact on the availability of red diesel for recreational boating as yet unknown.
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has today informed the RYA that it has lost its defence with the Court of Justice of the European Union of Case 503/17.
The court has ruled that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has failed to fulfil its obligations under Council Directive 95/60/EC of 27 November 1995 on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene (OJ 1995 L 291, p. 46).
The European Commission took action against the UK as it considers that, by allowing the use of marked fuel for the purposes of propelling private pleasure craft, the UK has failed to fulfil these obligations.
The European Commission indicated its intention to commence infraction proceedings against the UK in July 2011. In May 2013 the European Commission formally requested that the UK amend its legislation "to ensure that private pleasure boats such as luxury yachts can no longer buy lower taxed fuel intended for fishing boats" and issued a reasoned opinion to the UK Government, which HMRC indicated its intention to challenge in July 2013.
As a result, in July 2014, the European Commission indicated that it had decided to refer the UK to the Court of Justice of the European Union.
Today’s judgment means that, while the UK remains subject to the Fuel Marker Directive, the UK must bring its practices into line with this ruling.
HMRC is now examining the judgment and will announce how and when the UK will adjust its practices in due course. The RYA’s Cruising, Legal and Government Affairs team is now analysing the full impact for our 112,000 members and the recreational boating community – and plans to meet with HMRC to discuss the next steps. The crux of the matter is ensuring the continued availability of diesel for the leisure boating community.
RYA members will be kept informed as the situation develops via the RYA Current Affairs hub.

 

[CLB]

Bearing in mind we will be out of the EU in six months, why don't we just tell em to stuff it.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Bearing in mind we will be out of the EU in six months, why don't we just tell em to stuff it.

In what way that would solve the problem for UK boaters travelling to the continent?

 

[CLB]

Well it would be up to then if they wanted to pursue British boaters for having red diesel in their tanks. Personally I would be happy to stay in UK waters, in the same way that I have avoided Belgium for the last few years. Their loss.

BTW, why are Ireland not being pursued over their continued use of green diesel in leisure boats?

 

[dunedin]

What is the problem? What real justification is there for yachts to have less tax on fuel than a nurse commuting to work?

The current U.K. arrangement of typically 60/40 simply subsidises fuel hungry boats. Efficient boats and dsailing boats should have minimal impact.

 

[Greg2]

What is the problem? What real justification is there for yachts to have less tax on fuel than a nurse commuting to work?

The current U.K. arrangement of typically 60/40 simply subsidises fuel hungry boats. Efficient boats and dsailing boats should have minimal impact.

Perhaps because the tax regime is built around consumption rates for cars etc and not boats so the latter are disproportionately taxed if road duty prices are applicable.

FWIW SWMBO is a nurse and is also not happy at the thought of paying more to the Treasury for our family hobby but appreciates your concern about her commuting costs

 

[Momac]

What real justification is there

A boat is non road use so why should we pay road duty?

 

[RobBradley]

BTW, why are Ireland not being pursued over their continued use of green diesel in leisure boats?

And do not forget the numerous cars and other vehicles driving on red diesel when not entitled.... grew up in Derry, a quick nip over the border and less than a mile would be signs on the road side "Cheap diesel", and it was throughout the wonderful luscious green land wide and far, signs aplenty. There were more farms offering cheap diesel than there were official "petrol stations" selling legally, I am sure of it.

Perhaps because the tax regime is built around consumption rates for cars etc and not boats so the latter are disproportionately taxed if road duty prices are applicable.

A valid point, one I had never considered, and a very good one, well done sir!

 

[dunedin]

Perhaps because the tax regime is built around consumption rates for cars etc and not boats so the latter are disproportionately taxed if road duty prices are applicable.

The rationale for the fuel duty was partly a “ green” initiative to tax use of scarce and polluting fossil fuels, and hence intended to penalise high consumption.
For a sailing boat the difference in duty over a season is probably a tiny fraction of the annual running costs.
Clearly different for very large power boats, consuming very large quantities of fuel per mile. But again tax on fuel was specifically intended to reduce consumption.

 

[PCUK]

Old news, why bring it up now? Loss of derogation seriously damaged the UK marine support industry as many owners used their boats far less. Regarding overseas cruising. Once out EU countries will have no jurisdiction over what foreign vessels use for propulsion.

 

[awol]

Once out EU countries will have no jurisdiction over what foreign vessels use for propulsion.

As long as you don't visit an EU country. Having marked fuel in a leisure vessel is illegal in the EU now and in the future. The only change Brexit is likely to make may be enforcement of the rules.

 

[sailorman]

Just found this post on the Torquay marina facebook site.
Torquay Marina





1 hr ·







Court of Justice of the European Union rules against HMRC over red diesel.
Impact on the availability of red diesel for recreational boating as yet unknown.
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has today informed the RYA that it has lost its defence with the Court of Justice of the European Union of Case 503/17.
The court has ruled that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has failed to fulfil its obligations under Council Directive 95/60/EC of 27 November 1995 on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene (OJ 1995 L 291, p. 46).
The European Commission took action against the UK as it considers that, by allowing the use of marked fuel for the purposes of propelling private pleasure craft, the UK has failed to fulfil these obligations.
The European Commission indicated its intention to commence infraction proceedings against the UK in July 2011. In May 2013 the European Commission formally requested that the UK amend its legislation "to ensure that private pleasure boats such as luxury yachts can no longer buy lower taxed fuel intended for fishing boats" and issued a reasoned opinion to the UK Government, which HMRC indicated its intention to challenge in July 2013.
As a result, in July 2014, the European Commission indicated that it had decided to refer the UK to the Court of Justice of the European Union.
Today’s judgment means that, while the UK remains subject to the Fuel Marker Directive, the UK must bring its practices into line with this ruling.
HMRC is now examining the judgment and will announce how and when the UK will adjust its practices in due course. The RYA’s Cruising, Legal and Government Affairs team is now analysing the full impact for our 112,000 members and the recreational boating community – and plans to meet with HMRC to discuss the next steps. The crux of the matter is ensuring the continued availability of diesel for the leisure boating community.
RYA members will be kept informed as the situation develops via the RYA Current Affairs hub.

I have yet to be notified ( a full member since 1975 )

 

[Concerto]

Perhaps because the tax regime is built around consumption rates for cars etc and not boats so the latter are disproportionately taxed if road duty prices are applicable.

If Road Fuel Tax is supposed to build and maintain roads, then would Boat Fuel Tax help smooth our water between the waves?

 

[Aja]

Don't 'do' Facebook, but this is hardly topical is it?
Donald

 

[pandos]

Well it would be up to then if they wanted to pursue British boaters for having red diesel in their tanks. Personally I would be happy to stay in UK waters, in the same way that I have avoided Belgium for the last few years. Their loss.

BTW, why are Ireland not being pursued over their continued use of green diesel in leisure boats?

We have a system of making returns and paying the difference for the fuel we use whilst motoring... stationary use, or charging batteries or heating use is ok.... Just read the entire ECJ judgement and we are in the same position as the UK...

in typical European logic they say you cannot pay higher tax on red diesel because this is low tax fuel... which cannot be used in the engines of pleasure craft so paying the additional tax does not cure the defect...so it is a little more stark.

I use so little that I really do not care about the cost difference, The real issue is availability of white diesel at the pumps, and the choice of filling up once or twice a season or humping jerrycans from a filling station via the boot of the car... the total extra is probably less than €100 per season....

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1539818211110&uri=CELEX:62017CJ0503

The whole thing should be scrapped, millions of euros are being stolen each year through smuggling and laundering etc and millions more in enforcement and detection of illegal fuel use, I often queued for 20mins for a "dip" test at the roadside.......

cat litter was the means used to filter in the past....sometimes really unlucky taxi drivers got caught on the one occasion that they ran out and a passing farmer helped them out... I once saw a taxi driver bring his receipts into court to show that he always bought his fuel at a service station...the total fuel for the year when compared to his mileage showed about 10mpg in a Toyota Avensis, he eventually realised the can of worms....

 

[CLB]

Old news, why bring it up now? Loss of derogation seriously damaged the UK marine support industry as many owners used their boats far less. Regarding overseas cruising. Once out EU countries will have no jurisdiction over what foreign vessels use for propulsion.

Don't 'do' Facebook, but this is hardly topical is it?
Donald

Pay attention people, this is news today.

 

[Pinnacle]

I have yet to be notified ( a full member since 1975 )

Like many organisations today, they take the view that if it’s on their website (and in this case it is) they have “informed” you.

 

[[70521]]

As a sailing boat owner I use about 20l a year. On crossing la Manche to France I don't meet any motor boat owners; at the far western part of la Manche is this an issue as the Plymouth - Roscoff ferry would be far cheaper than taking a motor boat over. Come to think of it I don't often see a motor boat more than five miles from any port.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Regarding overseas cruising. Once out EU countries will have no jurisdiction over what foreign vessels use for propulsion.

How did you work that one out?

 

[Quandary]

Tobermory in July, red diesel £1.20 per litre on a 60/40 declaration, road diesel was around £1.30 at the time while fishermen were paying nearly 80p. So is it worth the hassle? I would be more concerned about the risk of more remote harbours like Gairloch or Lochinver stopping sales to leisure craft than having to pay 10% more. Availability trumps price ?