red diesel

[dave p]

so if we leave the eu can we reduce red diesel back to 30-40p per liter as it was before the eu removed the derogation on red diesel and sent it up to 95-105p per liter .

 

[maby]

If we leave the EU (including EEA), we can do anything we want, but you may still not be allowed to take your red diesel fuelled boat into EU ports. There have been a few cases of US registered boats being penalised for having red purchased in the USA in their tanks when arriving in EU ports. There is an informal convention that says that vehicles passing through a country should not be required to observe the fuel related laws of that country, but it is informal and there's no point in crying foul if it is not applied.

 

[Blue Sunray]

so if we leave the eu can we reduce red diesel back to 30-40p per liter as it was before the eu removed the derogation on red diesel and sent it up to 95-105p per liter .

Irrespective of the possibility or not I don't think that the Treasury would be willing loose the revenue.

 

[Sailorsam101]

If we leave the EU (including EEA), we can do anything we want, but you may still not be allowed to take your red diesel fuelled boat into EU ports. There have been a few cases of US registered boats being penalised for having red purchased in the USA in their tanks when arriving in EU ports. There is an informal convention that says that vehicles passing through a country should not be required to observe the fuel related laws of that country, but it is informal and there's no point in crying foul if it is not applied.

Already an issue in france...I've been west into the Biscay and been stopped before..tank dipped..red found and had to pay duty on the full tank.

Never a problem on the channel ports though.

But do you seriously think the government will reduce tax...no they will just keep it as it is and pocket the money.

 

[dave p]

have to start a petition on the 24th

 

[boatingdave]

have to start a petition on the 24th

I'm sure thats been done before, just ressurect the old one.

 

[dave p]

well the difference this time around (hopefully) we wont have the eu telling us what to do

 

[theoldsalt]

...............There is an informal convention that says that vehicles passing through a country should not be required to observe the fuel related laws of that country, but it is informal and there's no point in crying foul if it is not applied.

If vehicle fuel is taxed at one level when you fill up and you go to another EU country with a higher fuel tax it would just be impractical to enforce

But your point very interesting. Since it applies to vehicles why not boats? If true then I wonder if this has been raised by legal challange. (I've conveniently ignored the red dye issue)

 

[prv]

If vehicle fuel is taxed at one level when you fill up and you go to another EU country with a higher fuel tax it would just be impractical to enforce

It's not about the level of tax, it's specifically about the red dye. A blind eye is being turned to a degree, but the simple fact is that red dye in leisure boat tanks is illegal in the EU, regardless of how it got there and what the fuel cost.

Pete

 

[maby]

It's not about the level of tax, it's specifically about the red dye. A blind eye is being turned to a degree, but the simple fact is that red dye in leisure boat tanks is illegal in the EU, regardless of how it got there and what the fuel cost.

Pete

Indeed... For boats arriving from outside the EU with red diesel in the tanks that was legally purchased outside the EU, the informal conventions are such that they will not usually be challenged. In our case, we are an EU member and have failed to legislate to enforce a directive to their satisfaction - hence the attitude of some customs organisations within the EU.

If we leave the EU (and EEA), then we will not be subject to the EU directives and could continue to permit marked fuel in leisure craft. We should, then, be treated in the same way as other non-EU countries, but that does not guaranty immunity from revenue actions. There was at least one well documented case of a US boat being penalised in Germany for arriving with red in its tanks purchased in the US.

 

[boatingdave]

I don't know enough about the complexities of the red diesel debate (but am willing to learn). Probably a daft question - I've never understood (or more accurately never thought about it a great deal) but if we are paying road diesel prices at the marina's, why does it need to be dyed anyway. Is all marine diesel dyed across the globe? I've only ever bought marine diesel from UK suppliers.

 

[maby]

I don't know enough about the complexities of the red diesel debate (but am willing to learn). Probably a daft question - I've never understood (or more accurately never thought about it a great deal) but if we are paying road diesel prices at the marina's, why does it need to be dyed anyway. Is all marine diesel dyed across the globe? I've only ever bought marine diesel from UK suppliers.

It does not need to be dyed - in fact it must not be... The problem is that in most parts of the country there is not sufficient demand from the leisure market to justify having tanks and pumps dedicated to us - commercial boat users are entitled to purchase red diesel tax free - and, in fact, it must be marked if it is to be sold tax free. If the court rules against the UK government and forces them to stop letting us buy marked fuel even if we pay full tax, then most of the south coast of the country will be ok - we get most of our leisure fuel from marinas and they could justify switching one or more tanks to unmarked fuel. It would be more of a problem for leisure boat users in less populated areas where there is not enough of a market to justify setting up extra tanks and pumps. They share the fuel supplies of commercial users and that is all marked - and hence not permitted for leisure use.

 

[boatingdave]

Thanks Maby. Where I'm currently moored there are a mixture of commercial and leisure craft. I suspect it would not be viable for them to install another tank to keep the two separate. However, surely this could now be reversed as commercial vessels would have nothing to gain by putting in road diesel from a source other than a marina although of course some may still use heating oil I suppose so a commercial vessel could have dyed or 'clear' diesel whereas a leisure vessel would only have clear diesel allowed which they would obtain either from a marina or portable containers with road diesel. Therefore travel to areas which have banned red diesel would only be an issue for commercial vessels which would probably have better records of where their fuel comes from (you'd like to think). It seems to me as if the current system has not taken in to account the new taxation impact.

 

[maby]

As I understand it, the EU Commission would be relaxed about a scheme which had everyone buying unmarked fuel taxed at source with commercial users subsequently claiming tax rebates. HMRC and the commercial users are not enthusiastic about it because of all the extra administrative work it would entail.

 

[MystereMarcus]

Thanks Maby. Where I'm currently moored there are a mixture of commercial and leisure craft. I suspect it would not be viable for them to install another tank to keep the two separate. However, surely this could now be reversed as commercial vessels would have nothing to gain by putting in road diesel from a source other than a marina although of course some may still use heating oil I suppose so a commercial vessel could have dyed or 'clear' diesel whereas a leisure vessel would only have clear diesel allowed which they would obtain either from a marina or portable containers with road diesel. Therefore travel to areas which have banned red diesel would only be an issue for commercial vessels which would probably have better records of where their fuel comes from (you'd like to think). It seems to me as if the current system has not taken in to account the new taxation impact.

The issue would come if tax free White diesel were to end up in a car / lorry that should be using duty paid White diesel, there would be no way to identify it!

 

[boatingdave]

The issue would come if tax free White diesel were to end up in a car / lorry that should be using duty paid White diesel, there would be no way to identify it!

But thats a lesser problem in reverse and they would have to purchase it from a marina in Gerry cans? I don't suppose there is any easy answer to all this. All I think is the current system is creating more problems than it is resolving. IMHO.

 

[nauticalnomad]

Normal diesel from the service station in France last month was 86 pence in Brittany which works out cheaper than UK red anyways. Last December i paid 89eu cents a litre to fill up. Thats 70 pence roughly. I dont know what duty they want to charge on red fuel that cost more than French road fuel.

 

[maby]

The issue would come if tax free White diesel were to end up in a car / lorry that should be using duty paid White diesel, there would be no way to identify it!

There would not be such a thing as "tax free white diesel" - all unmarked diesel would be taxed at the point of sale and all marked diesel would be sold tax free. Marked diesel would only be available to users that have the legal right to use it. Unmarked diesel could be purchased by anyone, paying tax at the point of sale. Commercial users who have purchased unmarked fuel and paid the tax would be able to claim a refund. VAT works in very much the same way - my wife and I run a small IT company and purchase supplies through high street outlets frequently. We pay VAT at the same rate as any member of the public, then claim a refund from HMRC - it works, but they (HMRC) are not enthusiastic about adding similar processes for fuel taxes.

 

[bedouin]

. VAT works in very much the same way - my wife and I run a small IT company and purchase supplies through high street outlets frequently. We pay VAT at the same rate as any member of the public, then claim a refund from HMRC - it works, but they (HMRC) are not enthusiastic about adding similar processes for fuel taxes.

Do you actually reclaim the VAT or do you offset it against VAT you are required to charge your customers?

 

[MystereMarcus]

There would not be such a thing as "tax free white diesel" - all unmarked diesel would be taxed at the point of sale and all marked diesel would be sold tax free. Marked diesel would only be available to users that have the legal right to use it. Unmarked diesel could be purchased by anyone, paying tax at the point of sale. Commercial users who have purchased unmarked fuel and paid the tax would be able to claim a refund. VAT works in very much the same way - my wife and I run a small IT company and purchase supplies through high street outlets frequently. We pay VAT at the same rate as any member of the public, then claim a refund from HMRC - it works, but they (HMRC) are not enthusiastic about adding similar processes for fuel taxes.

I see your point about making the commercial vessels reclaim the tax, but as you say HMRC are trying to reduce processes (hence the introduction of the flat rate VAT system), and commercial users certainly wouldn't want any extra paperwork. Also, there would still be the possibility for duty reclaimed White diesel to end up in a road vehicle.