Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

[Concerto]

Red Diesel Update from RYA

RYA and industry representatives meet HMRC to discuss red diesel situation

November 22, 2018

Update on Government response to EU ruling

Following the ruling by the European Union Court of Justice against the UK’s use of red diesel by private pleasure craft, representatives from the boating community and boating industry – the Royal Yachting Association, British Marine, the Cruising Association, the Inland Waterways Association – met with HMRC officials on Tuesday, 20 November to discuss the implications of the Court’s decision and evaluate the UK’s response.

The meeting was extremely informative and productive, and the continued support of the UK Government is welcomed.

In effect, following the Court’s ruling, the expectation of the European Commission is that the UK must stop allowing the use of red diesel for the purposes of propulsion of a private pleasure craft and must therefore switch to white diesel.

The UK is required to provide a response to the Commission by 22 December 2018, setting out how it intends to bring the UK into line with the European Directive on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene, as well as a timeframe for achieving this.

It remains the position of all the boating representative bodies that a change to using white diesel would create insurmountable problems for boat users and the industry.

All the boating representative bodies will therefore be providing evidence of the practical implications to HMRC officials to inform the UK’s response to the Commission in the hope that we can jointly develop a practical and affordable solution in a realistic timeframe.

The RYA will continue to strive for the continued availability of diesel for the leisure boating community. Should you have any difficulties with red diesel abroad, please contact the RYA’s Cruising, Legal and Government Affairs team via boating.abroad@rya.org.uk or 023 8060 4232

 

[[70521]]

That's basically nonsense.
At sea if your engine stops due to diesel bug, that's because you haven't taken adequate care of your fuel.
Whether the fuel has biofuel content is pretty much irrelevant to diesel bug.
I've seen a few cases of diesel bug, all in red diesel.
I have never heard of diesel bug being an issue in a car. You might find a bit in the filter, that's all I've ever heard of, and I know a couple of people who deal in cars, including some that have been standing around.
There are many thousands of cars out there which go for many years without so much as a filter change. Tanks not cleaned out in 20 years.
The main problem with boats is piss poor design of fuel systems, compounded by lack of care.

That is not the experience of at least three very experienced diesel mechanics I know. They have all reported the bug in cars and lorries.

There is one significant difference between diesel systems in motor vehicles and boats, that is the throughput. In my little motor car I use about 120l in a month. On the boat that is about three years consumption.

How does the fuel system on a car differ to that on a boat?

Tank, fuel lines, filter, engine.

 

[dom]

That's basically nonsense.
At sea if your engine stops due to diesel bug, that's because you haven't taken adequate care of your fuel.
Whether the fuel has biofuel content is pretty much irrelevant to diesel bug.
I've seen a few cases of diesel bug, all in red diesel.
I have never heard of diesel bug being an issue in a car. You might find a bit in the filter, that's all I've ever heard of, and I know a couple of people who deal in cars, including some that have been standing around.
There are many thousands of cars out there which go for many years without so much as a filter change. Tanks not cleaned out in 20 years.
The main problem with boats is piss poor design of fuel systems, compounded by lack of care.

The addition of red dye pertains solely to the tax status of the fuel and has nothing whatsoever to do with its composition. Red diesel consequently may or may not be classified as low-sulphur, and it may or may not contain a percentage of FAME up to the prevailing road specifications. The red fuel one purchases may be ISO 8217/2010, or it may be low-sulphur with a percentage of FAME. It follows that observing cases of red with diesel bug allows no useful conclusion.

As for cars using FAME-inclusive diesel doing fine: this is true, but the fuel is normally kept much better, turns over more quickly in both the filling stations and cars, and is normally stored underground. Leaving this fuel sloshing around in marine tanks, sometimes exposed to seawater, sometimes allowed to warm in the summer, and then stored for long periods in yachts equipped with basic and poorly designed filtration systems ....then yes. as you say this is asking for trouble....

and it usually responds to being asked nicely!

 

[jimi]

A chemist in our marine laboratory in Hamburg told me to add the occasional gallon of unleaded petrol to my diesel as the lead replacement stuff is a very powerful biocide

 

[Blue Sunray]

It remains the position of all the boating representative bodies that a change to using white diesel would create insurmountable problems for boat users and the industry.

...and, whoosh, there goes their credibility, given that others can and have coped more than adequately.

 

[CLB]

...and, whoosh, there goes their credibility, given that others can and have coped more than adequately.

Who are these 'others'? When the derogation ended, only Ireland, Britain, Belgium and Malta (from memory) were affected. Ireland hasn't changed and the coastlines of Belgium and Malta hardly compare to the coastline of Britain. Belgium has what, 20 miles of coastline and half a dozen coastal harbours/marinas?

 

[Blue Sunray]

Who are these 'others'? When the derogation ended, only Ireland, Britain, Belgium and Malta (from memory) were affected. Ireland hasn't changed and the coastlines of Belgium and Malta hardly compare to the coastline of Britain. Belgium has what, 20 miles of coastline and half a dozen coastal harbours/marinas?

What's the relevance of "when the derogation ended"? Other than that that those you mentioned had more time to react?

 

[CLB]

What's the relevance of "when the derogation ended"? Other than that that those you mentioned had more time to react?

Well, when did France, for example, sell red diesel in their coastal marinas? Not in my boating lifetime, so they haven't coped. So I ask again, who are these 'others' who have coped?

 

[Blue Sunray]

Well, when did France, for example, sell red diesel in their coastal marinas? Not in my boating lifetime, so they haven't coped. So I ask again, who are these 'others' who have coped?

Sorry, what what the relevance of "when the derogation ended" apart from timescale again? Remind us, when was the ruling originally made and how long has the UK had to react thus far?

Oh and look up "insurmountable".

 

[CLB]

Sorry, what what the relevance of "when the derogation ended" apart from timescale again? Remind us, when was the ruling originally made and how long has the UK had to react thus far?

Oh and look up "insurmountable".

You seem to keep demanding answers from me, but are reluctant to answer my questions. The relevance of the derogation ending is that only those countries affected had to tackle the issue of swapping from red to white. The UK did react. It just didn't react in the way the EU expected. So I'll ask for the third and last time, who are the 'others' who have coped?

 

[westhinder]

Who are these 'others'? When the derogation ended, only Ireland, Britain, Belgium and Malta (from memory) were affected. Ireland hasn't changed and the coastlines of Belgium and Malta hardly compare to the coastline of Britain. Belgium has what, 20 miles of coastline and half a dozen coastal harbours/marinas?

I haven’t looked it up, but the transition period from red to white ended about 20 years ago.
In Belgium our pumps all simply switched from red to white at the end of the transition. So did the Dutch, that I am certain of, and I think the French did too.
I’m afraid the UK response is simply going to be ‘ostrich politics’, putting you head in the sand hoping the problem will just go away. Counting on brexit solving the problem may prove a miscalculation.

 

[Champagne Murphy]

I haven’t looked it up, but the transition period from red to white ended about 20 years ago.
In Belgium our pumps all simply switched from red to white at the end of the transition. So did the Dutch, that I am certain of, and I think the French did too.
I’m afraid the UK response is simply going to be ‘ostrich politics’, putting you head in the sand hoping the problem will just go away. Counting on brexit solving the problem may prove a miscalculation.

Exactly. Just bite the bloody bullet and get on with it.

 

[sailorman]

I haven’t looked it up, but the transition period from red to white ended about 20 years ago.
In Belgium our pumps all simply switched from red to white at the end of the transition. So did the Dutch, that I am certain of, and I think the French did too.
I’m afraid the UK response is simply going to be ‘ostrich politics’, putting you head in the sand hoping the problem will just go away. Counting on brexit solving the problem may prove a miscalculation.

:encouragement:

 

[awol]

Don't understand it! The "deal" has been agreed but ne'er a mention of red diesel derogation. I'm sure this was one of Theresa's red lines, the sovereign right of every true-blue British sailor that could never be the subject of negotiation, a bit like the Irish back-stop, leaving the customs union, fishing, the ECJ, etc..
I am so looking forward to Dec 27th's conclusions.

 

[jimi]

Wonder what we did before 1959 when marking was introduced to stop people abusing the duty free fuel for industry,agriculture and fisheries

 

[lw395]

That is not the experience of at least three very experienced diesel mechanics I know. They have all reported the bug in cars and lorries.

There is one significant difference between diesel systems in motor vehicles and boats, that is the throughput. In my little motor car I use about 120l in a month. On the boat that is about three years consumption.

How does the fuel system on a car differ to that on a boat?

Tank, fuel lines, filter, engine.

A car fuel system isn't thrown together by idiots using off the shelf parts.
Cars don't allow rain into their tanks just because a single 'o' ring is more than a year old.
Cars draw fuel from the bottom of the tank and get it into the filter pronto. So any water that enters is trapped in the filter, not sloshing about with a huge water/fuel interface.
Car tanks are usually not randomly vented to the air.

There are millions of disease-all cars on Uk roads and you really have to look hard for any reports of bug problems. That includes hundreds of thousands of cars tha do low mileages, tens of thousands of cars that have sat 'for sale' or otherwise idle with aging fuel in their tanks.

 

[[70521]]

A car fuel system isn't thrown together by idiots using off the shelf parts.
Cars don't allow rain into their tanks just because a single 'o' ring is more than a year old.
Cars draw fuel from the bottom of the tank and get it into the filter pronto. So any water that enters is trapped in the filter, not sloshing about with a huge water/fuel interface.
Car tanks are usually not randomly vented to the air.

There are millions of disease-all cars on Uk roads and you really have to look hard for any reports of bug problems. That includes hundreds of thousands of cars tha do low mileages, tens of thousands of cars that have sat 'for sale' or otherwise idle with aging fuel in their tanks.

That sounds very like the system on the boat, but I replace the O ring annually and smear the filler cap thread with Vaseline before replacing it; often to the amazement of the crew.

Not sure what randomly vented to the air means, I have a random vent on the car.

 

[BelleSerene]

Wonder what we did before 1959 when marking was introduced to stop people abusing the duty free fuel for industry,agriculture and fisheries

Now I understand why you argue so intelligently as you do. I think you’ve just got the facts wrong. Marking of fuel oil oil was not introduced until 1961. And what happened in ‘59 was not a tightening up but a relaxation of the rules on using rebated oil.