Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

[Seven Spades]

The RYA says "The RYA’s Cruising, Legal and Government Affairs team is now analysing the full impact for our 112,000 members and the recreational boating community – and plans to meet with HMRC to discuss the next steps. The crux of the matter is ensuring the continued availability of diesel for the leisure boating community."

Should not the RYA be lobbying the government to say that post BREXIT we are going to make our own rules and not implement this directive. It seems to me that this is actually a good example of something that we should agree to differ with the rest of the EU.

 

[Biggles Wader]

For us the issue is not the law here but the law in the rest of the EU when we visit. If you turn up in Belgium with any trace of red in your tank you are breaking their law and they can fine you loads of money. That is technically the case now,voluntarily suspended by the Belgians, and will still be case post brexit whatever new law we choose for the UK. Its a bit like Canada which has legalised cannabis but that does not allow a Canadian to come here and smoke it!

 

[[70521]]

I use white as it is far easier so source and about the same price as red (red was more expensive in Falmouth this year!).

Tank was steam cleaned last winter and all the pipework replaced due to the fuel bug from the red stuff - for me this is a non issue.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Exactly. After UK has left Europe red marked diesel will not be allowed, probably not just in Belgium. As the RYA points out the problem is supply in remote areas of the UK. Perhaps a network of portable “white diesel” debit/credit card
receptive tanks will need to be deployed where marinas are few and far between. And, of course marinas will have to purge their tanks! I foresee difficulties at Eyemouth, Arbroath, some Moray Firth ports, Wick, Kinlochverbie, Ullapool, Mallaig, Tobermory, Kylekin, Barmouth Fishguard and Padstow to name just a few ports with garages away from the quays. Moreover filling stations rules will have to amended so that more than 2 gallons can be transported in containers.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... Moreover filling stations rules will have to amended so that more than 2 gallons can be transported in containers.

I doubt that very much. The regulations are safety based and should not be changed for the convenience of leisure sailors, or small fishermen?

 

[awol]

There is a difference in dispensing rules for petroleum spirit and gas oil - AIUI there is no limit for dispensing or transporting the latter in portable containers.
Once we are out of the EU the government could revert to the duty free status for marked gas oil (a.k.a. red diesel) - aye, right!

 

[Tranona]

There is a difference in dispensing rules for petroleum spirit and gas oil - AIUI there is no limit for dispensing or transporting the latter in portable containers.
Once we are out of the EU the government could revert to the duty free status for marked gas oil (a.k.a. red diesel) - aye, right!

I have never had a problem filling 20l containers with diesel at Tesco.

As to what happens after Brexit that depends on the deal. If the current "Chequers" proposal goes through nothing will change as we will still be bound by EU rules. So it is not really Brexit at all.

 

[awol]

As to what happens after Brexit that depends on the deal. If the current "Chequers" proposal goes through nothing will change as we will still be bound by EU rules. So it is not really Brexit at all.

No matter how the Brexit disaster pans out, the idea that Westminster would give up a source of revenue seems unlikely. A budget announcement that fuel would be cheaper for rich yachties (inc. Sir Philip Green) might get the proles revolting.

 

[prv]

I have never had a problem filling 20l containers with diesel at Tesco.

The Esso petrol station near my house, with the shop branded as Tesco, is usually ok but has cut the pump off once and told me no more than ten litres. The M&S petrol station near work will never allow it. The Shell station didn't cut the pump off, but the friendly assistant remarked on how much my bill was, I said I'd filled a jerrycan (as well as the car) and he said, "oh, cheeky!" and he would have stopped the pump had he noticed.

As Awol says, the law doesn't prevent filling 20l cans with diesel, but company policies often do.

As to what happens after Brexit that depends on the deal. If the current "Chequers" proposal goes through nothing will change as we will still be bound by EU rules. So it is not really Brexit at all.

"Chequers" will not go through, since what it proposed was already vetoed by the EU months before it was published.

Anyway, the important point for us on the South Coast (and East Coast, possibly more so) is in Kurrawong's post - it doesn't matter too much what happens here, it's what the French (and Belgians and Dutch, for the East Coasters) do, and we're giving up all influence on that and antagonising and insulting them to boot.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

No matter how the Brexit disaster pans out, the idea that Westminster would give up a source of revenue seems unlikely. A budget announcement that fuel would be cheaper for rich yachties (inc. Sir Philip Green) might get the proles revolting.

Not thinking of the financial aspect - we will still be bound by the Fuel Directive - in other words our government will have no choice but to abide by the court ruling.

Who knows what will happen if we "crash out" and we end up with a government that has forgotten how to govern.

 

[[70521]]

I've never had any problems filling 2*20l jerry cans with diesel.

 

[dom]

Who knows what will happen if we "crash out" and we end up with a government that has forgotten how to govern.

Not knowing is forcing many businesses to set up subsidiaries in mainland Europe -- red carpet treatment in France vs red diesel and a dick-off attitude from the Treasury here.

 

[sailorman]

I doubt that very much. The regulations are safety based and should not be changed for the convenience of leisure sailors, or small fishermen?

Those rules appertain to "spirit" fuel not heavy fuel oils.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Those rules appertain to "spirit" fuel not heavy fuel oils.

AWOl at post #6 stated that. So it is not a problem to transport diesel around. I also don't see it as a problem to convert many small marinas to offer white diesel either. For example, a 5000 litre station with pump only costs around 3500 GBP incl vat https://www.tanksforeverything.co.uk/harlequin-5000fs-fuel-station-55-p

This is not an issue as far as I can tell, just one of willingness. We really need to stop pushing water up hill on this matter.

 

[macd]

This is not an issue as far as I can tell, just one of willingness. We really need to stop pushing water up hill on this matter.

Spot on, although I'd take slight issue with your spelling. Perhaps it should be wi££ingness? Much the same applies to low-FAME diesel.

 

[sailorman]

AWOl at post #6 stated that. So it is not a problem to transport diesel around. I also don't see it as a problem to convert many small marinas to offer white diesel either. For example, a 5000 litre station with pump only costs around 3500 GBP incl vat https://www.tanksforeverything.co.uk/harlequin-5000fs-fuel-station-55-p

This is not an issue as far as I can tell, just one of willingness. We really need to stop pushing water up hill on this matter.

Please forgive me for not reading every reply

 

[tillergirl]

Not thinking of the financial aspect - we will still be bound by the Fuel Directive - in other words our government will have no choice but to abide by the court ruling.

Have we agreed to be bound to the EU Directive when we have left the EU? Bit surprised about that and if we have then that's the end of red. However, I thought the point was to leave the EU and leave the mountain of Directives. If we leave the EU and the Directive then we can use red subject to our own Excise rules post Brexit. Once we have left the EU and the UK rules allow us, they cannot stop us using red. There is the issue of course that member states might suspect a UK yacht with red had illegally purchased red in the EU and if the UK yacht had done that, clearly it would be wrong. If you showed you had purchased all the red in the UK that ought to be ok but....

 

[macd]

Have we agreed to be bound to the EU Directive when we have left the EU?

Isn't it the point that after Brexit this all becomes UK law (Great Repeal Bill, and all that). Whatever de-Brusselation subsequently takes place will depend on each issue's place in the pecking order.
(I'd expect duty-free red for leisure boats to hatch quite bereft of a beak.)

 

[Appledore]

Although we have discussed this issue quite often, I am surprised that no mention of the Channel Islands has been made? As far as I know, you can only get red diesel in St Peter Port. And, of course, the Channel Islands are not part of the EU nor the United Kingdom. So red it will be, and perhaps fines for those who go to France, Belgium, Holland and so on? So boat owners in Guernsey will still risk fines, as they do now I suppose? BTW, my own boat is registered in Guernsey although based in Cornwall.

 

[Blue Sunray]

There is the issue of course that member states might suspect a UK yacht with red had illegally purchased red in the EU and if the UK yacht had done that, clearly it would be wrong. If you showed you had purchased all the red in the UK that ought to be ok but....

That would be fine if the law was that the duty must be paid, however the law is that it is illegal to have marked fuel in the tanks.