Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

Elecglitch said:
No, any (pleasure) vessel in the relevant EU country's waters (excepting of course innocent passage which does not include port calls). Flag state and nationality of crew/owner are not relevant.
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this is true, many British yachts that have docked in the EU have been fined with red diesel in their tanks especially Holland
 
moomba said:
this is true, many British yachts that have docked in the EU have been fined with red diesel in their tanks especially Holland
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My impression is that it is a few, not many.

That does not change the basic problem of a perceived (larger or smaller) risk deterring visits.

Most countries do not seem bothered about pursuing UK registered leisure craft, and the remainder seem to have done so only occasionally.

Belgium seems to have blown hot and cold on the matter over time, but was recently operating a publicly announced 'unofficial' blind eye while the EU law interpretation challenge was progressing, and seems to have become sensitised to the resulting harm to its tourist trade.

I suspect that post-Brexit (if it happens) it will continue to be formally a punishable offence in EU countries to have red diesel in your tank, but most countries will continue not to bother with any/much enforcement. Those like Belgium who feel the need to check up on their own registered craft, will continue or come to some sort of informal 'excused if you're Non-EU registered and have paperwork to show you bought it outside EU' practice if not policy.

That could settle down to a working arrangement (unless and until some fool is caught using it to cover some huge smuggling scam). One can live in hope, anyway.

What I definitely don't expect to happen is for the UK Government to address the problem. This is the least of their EU & Brexit problems.
 
tillergirl said:
Have we agreed to be bound to the EU Directive when we have left the EU? Bit surprised about that and if we have then that's the end of red. However, I thought the point was to leave the EU and leave the mountain of Directives. If we leave the EU and the Directive then we can use red subject to our own Excise rules post Brexit. Once we have left the EU and the UK rules allow us, they cannot stop us using red. There is the issue of course that member states might suspect a UK yacht with red had illegally purchased red in the EU and if the UK yacht had done that, clearly it would be wrong. If you showed you had purchased all the red in the UK that ought to be ok but....
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You are right - that is what I guess most people thought, particularly those who voted leave. However "chequers" does not do that but accepts that the UK will still be subject to EU directives, not just in the supply of goods but in many other key areas such as employment law, environmental law and who knows what else. As dom says most of this is already passed into UK law and we will continue to be obliged to accept any new directives. None of this has been spelt out in detail primarily because the EU has rejected the proposal in principle because it is "cherry picking".

So the problem becomes different if we do leave properly and become a third country as we will then be free to do what we want with red diesel, but visitors may still be fined if the other countries decide to apply the EU rule to visitors from third countries. So far they seem not to have done but guess because such visior numbers are currently very small.
 
awol said:
There is a difference in dispensing rules for petroleum spirit and gas oil - AIUI there is no limit for dispensing or transporting the latter in portable containers.
Once we are out of the EU the government could revert to the duty free status for marked gas oil (a.k.a. red diesel) - aye, right!
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That's actually a lot more likely than you think - electric cars are rather mucking up the revenue stream and we'll probably see an alternative system of road mile charging soon. It's a political nightmare and any Government that institutes a pay per mile scheme would only have any chance of surviving if it gave back something pretty big such as fuel duty.
 
I suppose we might want separate tanks for our eberbastos and run them on heating oil?
I don't think increasing our spend on diesel will make a big impact in the scheme of things.

I think the availability issue is mostly overblown, a few people in more remote areas might have to consider how they operate. Some people who never seem to actually sail anywhere might need bigger tanks if their refuelling options are reduced.

I have heard that HMRC are pretty much onside with the EU over this, as it's perceived that there is significant evasion of the duty due on propulsion fuel. It's easy to buy red diesel at agricultural rates and pour it into the tank of your boat. There are plenty of garages in the countryside who will sell you red 'for your generator/cement mixer/minidigger'. There are a lot of people who run such machinery who also have yachts/powerboats and mysteriously don't manage to collect many marina receipts for fuel.
I wouldn't want to defend the fuel duty split for a boat with no eber, no generator and plenty of solar charging.
 
For certain in percentage terms, there is a lot of dodging fuel duty on private leasure boats.

But in absolute values how much does it amount to? I think we have used 40l of fuel all year. Compared to a car, that would last some a day and many a week. And even though boating is popular, more people don't own a boat than do.

Is this simply an EU dictat or is there some real fiscal value in taxing leisure bost owners
 
Tomahawk said:
Is this simply an EU dictat or is there some real fiscal value in taxing leisure bost owners
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I very much doubt the rules are aimed specifically at any group of users, but at illegal use of duty-free diesel in general. No doubt many would be appalled if there weren't such controls.
(The last check I saw was on Greenwich Common. I doubt it left many boaters feeling persecuted.)
 
I use so little diesel in a year, I'm unconcerned about the tax situation, however it's resolved. If I have to pay it in full, so be it. I am more concerned that if Marine stations do put in a "white" tank for leisure yachties (like me) what's the guarantee it'll be all mineral with no bio fuel?

What REALLY yanks my chain is having to pay VAT on the fuel duty charged as well as the "price" dieso. Now THAT is a fight worth taking on.
 
Topcat47 said:
I use so little diesel in a year, I'm unconcerned about the tax situation, however it's resolved. If I have to pay it in full, so be it. I am more concerned that if Marine stations do put in a "white" tank for leisure yachties (like me) what's the guarantee it'll be all mineral with no bio fuel?

What REALLY yanks my chain is having to pay VAT on the fuel duty charged as well as the "price" dieso. Now THAT is a fight worth taking on.
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We'll be using the road diesel which people have been using fairly happily in the rest of the EU.
The stuff that car engines last 300,000 miles on.
I think you will find not only will you be paying VAT on the duty, you'll do so at the full 20% rate, not the low 5% rate charged on red.
No, it's not a fight worth taking on.
 
If we are forced into using road diesel (currently 5% bio but 10 and 20% are mooted) the dread "bug" is going to be a huge problem for sailors. It's not about how effective it is in car engines. I use a tank of Dieso in my car in about a fortnight. A tankful of Red lasts me a season at least on the boat.
 
Topcat47 said:
If we are forced into using road diesel (currently 5% bio but 10 and 20% are mooted) the dread "bug" is going to be a huge problem for sailors.
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If it did become "a huge problem", then wouldn't any fuel sold waterside be demonstrably unfit for purpose? And where might that take us...?
(Not trying to belittle your concern, just exploring the possible consequences.)
 
It might need people to update their fuel systems and practise better fuel control and cleanliness.
But at least it will be easy to empty the tank into a road vehicle to avoid excessive storage times.
Nobody ever seems to get bug problems in a car, despite never adding snake oil and never cleaning or fully emptying the tank. A lot of cars don't do huge mileages. Not a big percentage of cars, but there are tens of thousands of cars out there doing only a few thousand miles a year and/or being left idle for months on end.
Cars for sit on forecourts unused for weeks on end. Problems are few.
I suspect the recirculating fuel system and decent tank design, which means any free water is removed whenever the engine runs, removes the problem?
Diesel bug has been around a lot longer than bio-diesel.
 
Topcat47 said:
I'm not keen to fund a test case, are you?
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Not sure it would require a test case. The qualifier is its becoming an actual "huge problem" which would be hard to dismiss as fiction. Consumer law would presumably apply.

The same "huge problem", one hopes, might also trigger some strong response from the RYA.

And if either of those come to pass, a retailer's response might be to stock a different fuel (at perhaps, greater cost). Or stop flogging fuel altogether. Hence my implication of unintended consequences in my earlier post.

By way of a slight aside, even if regulations required, say, 10% FAME, this would not (under current practice) prevent the selling of 0% FAME. The requirement is for x% FAME across the market, not on any specific product. The issue seems, above all, to be willingness (which is in essence, often a commercial consideration).
 
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As someone who has experienced "the bug" more than once, it's not a trivial problem. It cost me a lot just to dispose of the contaminated fuel (and NO I wasn't prepared to use it in the tank of my road vehicle). A swift trawl though posts on this site should convince you it's all too common even with red Diesel. It's far from easy to drain my 60l tank into containers and I'm sure there are many others who would find having to do this on a regular basis somewhat tiresome. As for using it in a road vehicle, it's currently "red" and it's use illegal. It may surprise you to know the "dye" is remarkably persistent, too. My Brother -in-Law has a diesel "lawnmower" which was used with red diesel on a farm. He has no access to red diesel yet the stuff in the tank remains pink after three years of use.

It's not actually illegal to sell leaded petrol but just try to buy it anywhere, hence the plethora of additives needed if you're running an old, unmodified, high performance classic.
 
Topcat47 said:
It's not about how effective it is in car engines. I use a tank of Dieso in my car in about a fortnight. A tankful of Red lasts me a season at least on the boat.
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I think the state of waterside fuel stations has something to do with it too. A few years ago I was replacing the fuel lift pump in my car and decided to take a look at the primary filter while I was there - since I’d never changed it in several years of ownership I assumed it must be pretty gummed up. Nope, clean as a whistle, yet I get a constant (though manageable) stream of black crud appearing in the filter bowl on the boat. The boat tank has been cleaned and scrubbed by hand twice in my time, and it’s fairly small for the size of boat so we’re cycling the fuel through in reasonable time, so most of the crud has to be coming in through the filler nozzle.

I think roadgoing fuel stations with constant turnover keep their tanks and their stock in better condition than many scruffy intermittently-used fuel barges.

Pete
 
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