Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

[bluerm166]

Surely the current issue arises because we are within the EU and not following EU agreements.
If we are unfortunate enough to leave the EU then it seems unlikely that they will have any legal interest in how much our diesel costs us unless we have some new 'customs arrangement' that has the same requirements.So I think this is quite different to any Safety issue that they might pursue e.g. in date-checks on life jackets,flares etc. that they might pursue under some maritime agreement.

 

[Bru]

There is a difference in dispensing rules for petroleum spirit and gas oil - AIUI there is no limit for dispensing or transporting the latter in portable containers.
Once we are out of the EU the government could revert to the duty free status for marked gas oil (a.k.a. red diesel) - aye, right!

For clarity...

There are limits on the transport and storage of gas oil and DERV but they are well beyond anything the leisure boater needs to concern themselves with

However, as I have oft pointed out in the past there ARE strict limits on the quantity that can legally be dispensed on the forecourt and restrictions on the types of container permitted

These restrictions are contained in the site licence and the usual default is a maximum of 2x5ltr plastic, 2x10ltr metal or 1x20ltr metal CE marked containers regardless of whether petrol or diesel is being dispensed

(The limits, but not the container types, can be varied but rarely are)

It is not the purchaser who is breaking the law if the limits are exceeded or other containers are used, it is the retailer who is in breach of their licence

It is also necessary to take into account company policy which may impose further restrictions. Not uncommonly this is a ban on 20 litre metal containers because of the near impossibility of differentiating between CE marked containers (the ones with the cap locking pin) and standard "Jerry" cans

Of course, as we all know, the restrictions are often ignored by forecourt staff and customers alike, and unmanned sites are rarely monitored as closely as they should be, but if the staff see it they are risking disciplinary action if they ignore it (and it could be, and from time to time is, a "test" purchase by Trading Standards (who carry out the enforcement duties of the Petroleum Officer responsible for issuing site licences)

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling it as it is. The rules are daft and inconsistently enforced but they are what they are!

 

[wizard]

Regarding red diesel use in France in the future:

I remember the last time this all blew up over the problems in Belgium and the scuttlebutt cruise was due in Cherbourg, Magli went to the french customs and other officialdom to get confirmation that we would not be fined. They were really concerned about the loss of revenue. So, I am hoping that in some areas of the EU business pressures may make a difference.

However, it has to be said that Macron has been quite vocal in not condescending to British demands so far.

We shall wait and see ....

 

[robertj]

dont go to Belgium

 

[maby]

dont go to Belgium

I've no intention of going - went there once many years ago and that should be enough for anyone....

 

[prv]

If we are unfortunate enough to leave the EU then it seems unlikely that they will have any legal interest in how much our diesel costs us

They will still very much have an interest in the colour of fuel in our tanks when in their country, though.

In or out of the EU is not really relevant to that; there has been at least one American yacht fined in Belgium for having on board marked fuel bought elsewhere.

Pete

 

[Blue Sunray]

They will still very much have an interest in the colour of fuel in our tanks when in their country, though.

In or out of the EU is not really relevant to that; there has been at least one American yacht fined in Belgium for having on board marked fuel bought elsewhere.

Pete

Indeed, there does seem a general lack of comprehension about this.

 

[[70521]]

A tankful of Red lasts me a season at least on the boat.

A tankful (100l) of Red lasts me about five years! I caught the bug last year and have no plans to catch it again.

Some interesting points on this YouTube talk.

 

[Tomahawk]

However, it has to be said that Macron has been quite vocal in not condescending to British demands so far.

We shall wait and see ....

I wonder about the French economy in the Haute Savoie if he succeds in disrupting UK skiers? As you say, wait and see,

 

[Tomahawk]

I very much doubt the rules are aimed specifically at any group of users, but at illegal use of duty-free diesel in general. No doubt many would be appalled if there weren't such controls.
(The last check I saw was on Greenwich Common. I doubt it left many boaters feeling persecuted.)

The EU insisted on applying tax to leisure boat owners. Up till then our government seems to have considered the revenue that may be collected was not worth the effort of a applying tax on leisure boat owners. Which .i posed the question. Is taxing red fuel a significant source of revenue?

Besides which the EU is self contradictory. They apply fuel tax on lorries carrying fish on roads because they are being transported. But they do not apply tax on the boat carrying the same fish from sea to shore.

 

[[70521]]

They apply fuel tax on lorries carrying fish on roads because they are being transported. But they do not apply tax on the boat carrying the same fish from sea to shore.

That would be silly, would fuel used catching fish be taxed at a different rate?

Running a fishing boat is very different to running a lorry, but you knew that.

 

[macd]

The EU insisted on applying tax to leisure boat owners.

No doubt you can contrive a rational argument against that. I can't.

 

[bluerm166]

They will still very much have an interest in the colour of fuel in our tanks when in their country, though.

In or out of the EU is not really relevant to that; there has been at least one American yacht fined in Belgium for having on board marked fuel bought elsewhere.

Pete

You seem to know more about this than the RYA.
There is no 'lack of comprehension' about this i.e what will happen if we have no new comparable arrangements with the EU.If indeed the American yacht was correctly fined (in EU terms) then it would be because they were deemed to be carrying contraband goods.

 

[awol]

The EU insisted on applying tax to leisure boat owners.

You just don't get it, do you? It's sweet F.A. to do with taxing leisure boat owners, they are just collateral to the principle that marked fuel can only be used in certain defined areas and leisure boating ain't one. The EU don't care how much tax you pay on it, it is the simple fact of marked diesel in your tanks that is illegal.

 

[westhinder]

I'm not keen to fund a test case, are you?

May I draw your attention to the fact that for many years white road diesel has been used in boats all over Europe. You would hardly be a test case.
There do not seem to be any more problems with diesel bug over here than in the UK. Certainly it is not a burning topic among yachtspeople over here, far less I would say than in the UK, if these forums are anything to go by.

 

[BabaYaga]

May I draw your attention to the fact that for many years white road diesel has been used in boats all over Europe. You would hardly be a test case.
There do not seem to be any more problems with diesel bug over here than in the UK. Certainly it is not a burning topic among yachtspeople over here, far less I would say than in the UK, if these forums are anything to go by.

This may vary across Europe. Up here, shore side filling stations, at least the ones I have encountered, carry the sign 'FAME-free diesel". This has been the case for the last five years or so. I think the reason is that about ten years ago boaters did indeed experience increasing bug problems because of the bio content in road diesel. (Tax on the fuel has nothing to do with this, BTW the fuel intended for commercial vessels is dyed green here).
My guess is that the potential problems of a rising bio content in diesel in the future will be solved by introducing newer technologies, like hydrogenated vegetable oil, HVO.

 

[PhillM]

Ignoring the rights and wrongs, What exactly do we do to deal with this?

My tank is fairly new and has had red it in. I guess that any white I put in will go red, for years to come. How do I avoid getting fined, without having to remove and replace my tank?

 

[maby]

Ignoring the rights and wrongs, What exactly do we do to deal with this?

My tank is fairly new and has had red it in. I guess that any white I put in will go red, for years to come. How do I avoid getting fined, without having to remove and replace my tank?

I guess (hope?) that we will get the grace period that the rest of the EU got in order to get the concentration down to an acceptable level before we are subject to any action. The EU didn't force the introduction of the ban overnight - our continental counterparts got several years of warning before anyone was prosecuted. If you have your tank full of marked fuel, you will need to run it close to empty and refill with unmarked three times to get the level of marker down to a level where the test will not be conclusive.

There is, of course, a risk that the EU authorities will simply point out that we had several years to make the transition along with all the other EU members and frittered them away - we have the RYA to thank for that!

 

[PhillM]

I guess (hope?) that we will get the grace period that the rest of the EU got in order to get the concentration down to an acceptable level before we are subject to any action. The EU didn't force the introduction of the ban overnight - our continental counterparts got several years of warning before anyone was prosecuted. If you have your tank full of marked fuel, you will need to run it close to empty and refill with unmarked three times to get the level of marker down to a level where the test will not be conclusive.

There is, of course, a risk that the EU authorities will simply point out that we had several years to make the transition along with all the other EU members and frittered them away - we have the RYA to thank for that!

Thanks Maby, I am sure I can do that before heading over the channel. I do have a few 10 and 5l containers, which it may just be easier to chuck away and buy new ones - slightly irritating as I only got them this year, but better to be safe ....

 

[Seven Spades]

But at least it will be easy to empty the tank into a road vehicle to avoid excessive storage times.

Cars for sit on forecourts unused for weeks on end. Problems are few.
I suspect the recirculating fuel system and decent tank design, which means any free water is removed whenever the engine runs, removes the problem?
Diesel bug has been around a lot longer than bio-diesel.

Really my boat holds 1300l of fuel and best practice is to try to keep it full to minimise consendation. Please explain how easy that will be.