Red Diesel - UK Government loses.

Seven Spades said:
Really my boat holds 1300l of fuel and best practice is to try to keep it full to minimise consendation. Please explain how easy that will be.
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The 'keep it full' folklore is basically nonsense.
If you believe significant water is going to enter via the breather, you could fit a better breather system or even better tanks which don't need the fuel open to the air.
You can buy dessicant breather filters for hydraulic systems. You might want an additional one-way breather to let air out when filling.
Doing something more sophisticated might well pay for itself by not dragging a surplus ton of fuel around.

This has only ever been going to go one way. I can't see there will be a lot of public sympathy. There isn't even a lot of sympathy from owners of smaller sailing boats or petrol powered boats as far as I can see.
 
I have a sailing boat with diesel heating, the amount I use for propulsion is less than what I use for heating (during my latest 1 week on the water I haven't even moved the boat, but used the heating extensively). AFAIK heating is a full legitimate use of red diesel, am I wrong?
 
GTom said:
I have a sailing boat with diesel heating, the amount I use for propulsion is less than what I use for heating (during my latest 1 week on the water I haven't even moved the boat, but used the heating extensively). AFAIK heating is a full legitimate use of red diesel, am I wrong?
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It is entirely your choice the proportion of fuel you declare as propulsion. It is possible the C&E (or whatever they're called this week) may ask you to justify your choice but unlikely.
Unfortunately, some diesel vendors are too lazy or ignorant to cope with anything other than 60/40
 
GTom said:
I have a sailing boat with diesel heating, the amount I use for propulsion is less than what I use for heating (during my latest 1 week on the water I haven't even moved the boat, but used the heating extensively). AFAIK heating is a full legitimate use of red diesel, am I wrong?
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You are right. All you need to have is a tank for your heating system, which can be full to the brim with red, and another for the engine which will hold white.
 
If you look on the HMRC website, they accept houseboats which are 99% heating/generator as valid users of red.
 
Many years ago a friend of a friend worked for Customs and Excise. We were out one Saturday afternoon when he spotted something rather odd with a vehicle, a rather nice Rolls Royce, and promptly ceased it! The owner was none to pleased as the flat bed lorry turned up and loaded the car up. I quizzed him about it afterwards and he commented that with three hundred years of history they have a lot of power. The ensuing High Court case was fascinating.
 
Sandy said:
What about the other weeks? You can have that discussion with the nice people who collect the taxes.
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Depends very much, but leaving the marina and motoring for another 3 minutes until I hoist the sails won't add too much.

westhinder said:
You are right. All you need to have is a tank for your heating system, which can be full to the brim with red, and another for the engine which will hold white.
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I think I'll do that, I have 2 tanks anyway. BTW, what about generator/alternator use, aka when the engine is not used for propulsion?
 
Sandy said:
Many years ago a friend of a friend worked for Customs and Excise. We were out one Saturday afternoon when he spotted something rather odd with a vehicle, a rather nice Rolls Royce, and promptly ceased it! The owner was none to pleased as the flat bed lorry turned up and loaded the car up. I quizzed him about it afterwards and he commented that with three hundred years of history they have a lot of power. The ensuing High Court case was fascinating.
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And what was he noticed that was odd?
 
awol said:
You just don't get it, do you? It's sweet F.A. to do with taxing leisure boat owners, they are just collateral to the principle that marked fuel can only be used in certain defined areas and leisure boating ain't one. The EU don't care how much tax you pay on it, it is the simple fact of marked diesel in your tanks that is illegal.
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You are right, I don't get it. The Uk government was happy to allow leisure boat owners to use marked fuel. Then the EU instructed the UK government to end the practice. If it were not the case, we would not be having the discussion about red fuel.
 
Tomahawk said:
You are right, I don't get it. The Uk government was happy to allow leisure boat owners to use marked fuel. Then the EU instructed the UK government to end the practice. If it were not the case, we would not be having the discussion about red fuel.
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Yes, we would! Even the UK custom checked cars for red diesel before we joined the EU. A lot of countries have different tax rates for different uses and mark fuel accordingly. Ireland and Sweden use green markers. I remember innocently, before the Euro trying to buy diesel from a Dutchman who only sold red diesel and he forcibly told me that he could not sell red diesel to a non commercial user. If we get to countries that do not allow marked diesel in boats then we can expect problems, EU or no EU! You have to abide by the laws of the country you visit, unless in international waters. For example any ship visiting the UK is liable to inspection by UK surveyors to ensure compliance with our maritime safety laws. If they fail we may and do impound such vessels until rectification.
 
GTom said:
I have a sailing boat with diesel heating, the amount I use for propulsion is less than what I use for heating (during my latest 1 week on the water I haven't even moved the boat, but used the heating extensively). AFAIK heating is a full legitimate use of red diesel, am I wrong?
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If you seriously use so much diesel for heating then surely the answer for you would be to fit a separate heating fuel tank, not usable by the engine. Seems fair and simple solution.
 
GTom said:
I have a sailing boat with diesel heating, the amount I use for propulsion is less than what I use for heating (during my latest 1 week on the water I haven't even moved the boat, but used the heating extensively). AFAIK heating is a full legitimate use of red diesel, am I wrong?
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The current legal deal is that you are liable for tax on the fuel that you use for propulsion. Any other use, like lighting, pumping, heating, battery charging etc, is not liable for the tax. It is YOU who decides what proportion of your fuel is used for propulsion. You tell the fuel vendor how much tax to apply.

HMCR have let it be known that they will not quibble about anyone claiming 60/40. ie 60% propulsion, and 40% other use, and so that has become the norm. If you can justify using more for heating etc than for propulsion, it is up to you to claim for that, and if questioned, to be able to show justification.
 
NormanS said:
The current legal deal is that you are liable for tax on the fuel that you use for propulsion. Any other use, like lighting, pumping, heating, battery charging etc, is not liable for the tax. It is YOU who decides what proportion of your fuel is used for propulsion. You tell the fuel vendor how much tax to apply.

HMCR have let it be known that they will not quibble about anyone claiming 60/40. ie 60% propulsion, and 40% other use, and so that has become the norm. If you can justify using more for heating etc than for propulsion, it is up to you to claim for that, and if questioned, to be able to show justification.
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This has all been chewed over many, many times for Eons. Try the forum search
 
westhinder said:
May I draw your attention to the fact that for many years white road diesel has been used in boats all over Europe. You would hardly be a test case.
There do not seem to be any more problems with diesel bug over here than in the UK. Certainly it is not a burning topic among yachtspeople over here, far less I would say than in the UK, if these forums are anything to go by.
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Thing is, its not just the ‘bug’ issue that causes concern. Also there is the problem that older engines may have seals in their construction which won’t tolerate bio ethanol. In addition and according to the September 2015 YM, road diesel in Europe HAS to have 7% bio ethanol added so even getting hold of FAME free white diesel would be illegal. Which is all to say that going white for some will mean rebuilding/replacing older engines long before they really need to. How environmentally friendly is that?
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/new...-choice-fame-free-fuel-and-white-diesel-32404
 
Champagne Murphy said:
,,, according to the September 2015 YM, road diesel in Europe HAS to have 7% bio ethanol added so even getting hold of FAME free white diesel would be illegal.
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It would be illegal to sell it on forecourts for use in vehicles, it would not, and is not, be illegal to sell it on the dockside for use in boats. Hence the availability of FAME free MDO (marine diesel oil)

It would equally be perfectly legal to continue selling exactly the same fuel as marinas etc. now sell (commonly known as gas oil, which covers a multitude of sins) but without the red dye marker

It is only the marker that is a problem, not the nature of the marked fuel (that, of course, may change in the future)
 
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