Red Diesel the same price as regular?

[PetiteFleur]

I have been using white diesel for several years as our local boatyard stopped selling to pleasure users due to the paperwork involved. I top up regularly using 3 x 10litre cans. And I use MR16 diesel additive to prevent diese bug.

 

[[70521]]

I thought that the big advantage of red is that if you are lucky you can buy it FAME free, which is recommended for older engines and fuel systems?

Will anybody ever prove that? I'd love to see some evidence.

 

[NormanS]

I was told that kerosene or 28 second heating oil should not be used in engines as it lacks the lubricant needed for the fuel pump. If this is correct then using it to save a few quid could result in an expensive repair.

You are quite correct. Don't use kerosene in an engine, but it's fine to use it in an Eberspacher or similar heater.

 

[jdc]

...
I still stick to red on the boat in the vain hope it is free from biodiesel, and so less prone to dissolved water contamination (and hence bug)

Probably doing the opposite of what you suppose!

Diesel dissolves around 50ppm of water by volume, FAME about 1500 ppm. Thus road diesel, which is about 7% FAME, dissolves around 150 ppm, or 1 part water to 7000 of diesel. Ok , molecules aren't exactly the same size, but it's still only one lonely water molecule surrounded by thousands of 'hostile' diesel ones.

How big is a bacterium? Around 10¹¹ - 100,000,000,000 - atoms so no way can a 'diesel bug' live and reproduce (cue tinkly piano from Swann and mellifluous baritone from Flanders) in dissolved water. It needs trillions of adjacent water molecules to live. And of course one bacterium - the size of a trillion water molecules - won't block your filter, probably you need 10cm³ of them, which is around 10 trillion bacteria, or a trillion-trillion water molecules, all cheek by jowl.

Thus anything which cuts down on free water in your fuel tank is a benefit, indeed at least one well known brand of 'bug killer' works by this principle, ie it dissolves water in the fuel. And, since 7% bio blend dissolves 3x as much free water as pure distillate diese, it probably is better for preventing water in the tank. It's free water you have to avoid like the plague (lest you catch it!)

 

[Dellquay13]

Probably doing the opposite of what you suppose!

Diesel dissolves around 50ppm of water by volume, FAME about 1500 ppm. Thus road diesel, which is about 7% FAME, dissolves around 150 ppm, or 1 part water to 7000 of diesel. Ok , molecules aren't exactly the same size, but it's still only one lonely water molecule surrounded by thousands of 'hostile' diesel ones.

How big is a bacterium? Around 10¹¹ - 100,000,000,000 - atoms so no way can a 'diesel bug' live and reproduce (cue tinkly piano from Swann and mellifluous baritone from Flanders) in dissolved water. It needs trillions of adjacent water molecules to live. And of course one bacterium - the size of a trillion water molecules - won't block your filter, probably you need 10cm³ of them, which is around 10 trillion bacteria, or a trillion-trillion water molecules, all cheek by jowl.

Thus anything which cuts down on free water in your fuel tank is a benefit, indeed at least one well known brand of 'bug killer' works by this principle, ie it dissolves water in the fuel. And, since 7% bio blend dissolves 3x as much free water as pure distillate diese, it probably is better for preventing water in the tank. It's free water you have to avoid like the plague (lest you catch it!)

I presumed that dissolved water would eventually turn into a puddle at the bottom of the tank. Just in case, every time I add fuel I add a bit of bug preventer.
When I first bought my boat, it turned out to have about an inch of frogspawny snotty stuff at the bottom of the tank, which was a pain to get rid of, mostly from rainwater getting past a failed O-ring on the filler cap.
The red diesel at the docks is probably white b7 plus dye , but I would still rather use red (in the hope it’s not b7) or premium diesel from a branded supplier (hopefully with some extra lubricants and cleaning agents) than supermarket stuff.
If I was using more than about 30 litres a year I might be tempted by Tesco prices, but my fuel sits too long for me to take a chance with water getting back in just to save a pound or two over a year.

 

[jdc]

'a bit of bug preventer' is probably bad also (not getting at you, but at the marketing by the snake oil purveyors). You might as well ask 'Why not add a bit of antibiotic' to animal feed? Because only the fittest bacteria, ie those with mutations most resistant to the biocide, survive. A better way of selecting for antibiotic / biocide resistant bugs couldn't be conceived. MRSA is an example.

Instead, don't have free water, and if you do, drain it off at once. Probably like this you'll never have an issue. But if you have confirmed bug, then shock treat the whole tank and system with a massive dose. No half measures: if prescribed an antibiotic you wouldn't take half the prescribed dose and then stop after a day or two 'cos you feel better, you do what the GP wrote on the label! Same goes for biocide - not as bad, but you get the idea.

PS I agree 100% on get from a good supplier who has stored it properly; the amount of water which is dissolved in fuel is regulated to prevent it ending up in a puddle at the bottom of the tank, but cowboys don't always pay attention. Probably a supermarket forecourt is that safest place to buy from, and a marina the worst.

 

[Dellquay13]

'a bit of bug preventer' is probably bad also (not getting at you, but at the marketing by the snake oil purveyors). You might as well ask 'Why not add a bit of antibiotic' to animal feed? Because only the fittest bacteria, ie those with mutations most resistant to the biocide, survive. A better way of selecting for antibiotic / biocide resistant bugs couldn't be conceived. MRSA is an example.

Instead, don't have free water, and if you do, drain it off at once. Probably like this you'll never have an issue. But if you have confirmed bug, then shock treat the whole tank and system with a massive dose. No half measures: if prescribed an antibiotic you wouldn't take half the prescribed dose and then stop after a day or two 'cos you feel better, you do what the GP wrote on the label! Same goes for biocide - not as bad, but you get the idea.

‘Bit of bug preventer’ was shorthand for a measured dose of mr16 mixed into the fresh fuel before I top my tank whenever I get down to 8/10, to try to avoid condensation. I am rigorous in checking for any visible water in my system, tank and filters. Having bought a boat with bug, I try hard not to get it back.
I have a family member who runs a large supermarket, and he has warned us all off from their fuel “because they water it down with any cr@p they can get away with”
If I was just buying from a low turnover marina, I’d agree, but the docks get through loads of red for the local fishing boats. As the marina, fuel supply and docks are all owned and managed by one of the biggest and busiest port authorities in the uk, I guess the red diesel we buy comes from the same supplier as the port’s own tugs and pilot boats.
I don’t know where the tankers or ferries that visit Milford get their fuel from, or even if it is diesel or another heavier oil.

 

[Boater Sam]

The suggested 60/40 split is not mandatory, you make your own declaration up to 100% for heating use if you wish. If the seller disagrees he can refuse to serve you but not enforce any split.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Only Northern Ireland is excluded.

Damn. That excludes me, guess I can stop looking right away anyway. Oh my. It's so complicated, one really has to keep up with this stuff. (I didn't.)

 

[WoodyP]

This contractor/farmer argument - sorry - discussion - has been going on for ever. I agree with you - if it’s your farm, your fields, your straw and your equipment then it’s red all day - the moment someone else is being paid to do that for you/with you then they are contractors and should be on white.

Thats wrong. Agricultural operations by contractors can use red.

 

[Refueler]

I thought that the big advantage of red is that if you are lucky you can buy it FAME free, which is recommended for older engines and fuel systems?

Not true.

 

[Refueler]

I get my red from Milford docks and they have a big turnover, so I trust their red more than I trust Tesco white with 7% fame and god knows what else they are diluting it down with at the time

Who do you think supplies Tesco with their fuel ?? All the big company's fight for Supermarket Fuel contracts each time they come up for tender ........... you think Tesco produce their own ?????

 

[Beneteau381]

I was told that kerosene or 28 second heating oil should not be used in engines as it lacks the lubricant needed for the fuel pump. If this is correct then using it to save a few quid could result in an expensive repair.

In the olden days of shortages, people used paraffin/kerosene/ 28 sec heating oil as fuel with the addition of 1/2 pint of straight sae30 engine oil per gallon. Any diesel engine will run on any moderately viscous oil, the question is whether the lube value of it is good enough as you say. The instruction booklets for old Gardner engines camewith instructions on how to filter oldengine oil to use as fuel.

 

[Refueler]

You are quite correct. Don't use kerosene in an engine, but it's fine to use it in an Eberspacher or similar heater.

Only part correct.

Kerosine is used in engines - particularly in Arctic conditions due to cold properties. In fact I used to oversee 1000's of tons of the stuff shipped out as Nanuk Diesel for Canada / Alaska ... but before use - it had Lubricity Additive added.

The reduction of Sulphur is the main factor that creates the Lubricity need. This is evident in ALL Diesels / Gasoils for road use etc. Years ago - Red was based on 0.2 ... 0.5% Sulphur Gasoil ... which then was reduced in stages along with 'White Diesel' ... such that the two are now usually same diesel but the Red Dye / Yellow Marker added to distinguish ...
They all carry Bio .........

 

[Refueler]

In the olden days of shortages, people used paraffin/kerosene/ 28 sec heating oil as fuel with the addition of 1/2 pint of straight sae30 engine oil per gallon. Any diesel engine will run on any moderately viscous oil, the question is whether the lube value of it is good enough as you say. The instruction booklets for old Gardner engines camewith instructions on how to filter oldengine oil to use as fuel.

Engine oil is actually a very poor product to use for this ... and is why Lubricity additive is of a completely different format. It was ok in the old engines where tolerances were poor ... but don't ever think about it for todays diesel engines.

 

[Beneteau381]

Engine oil is actually a very poor product to use for this ... and is why Lubricity additive is of a completely different format. It was ok in the old engines where tolerances were poor ... but don't ever think about it for todays diesel engines.

The olden days dear boy, engine oil was a different beast then. Anyway the market traders, travellers et al that did this, did it. The old trannys would run on anything in those days. The same as the Gardners that I refer to.

 

[Dellquay13]

Who do you think supplies Tesco with their fuel ?? All the big company's fight for Supermarket Fuel contracts each time they come up for tender ........... you think Tesco produce their own ?????

I think Tesco have an arrangement with Esso. I’ve certainly seen them sharing forecourts away from major stores.
I’ve had advice from old friends in the motor maintenance trade, and the supermarket family member to avoid cheap supermarket diesel in my van because of the quality and low level of added detergents and lubricants in their ulsd compared to the premium grades sold at branded forecourts. There is probably some snake oil added to the price of such premium fuel by the time it gets to the nozzle, but for 30 litres sitting in my yacht tank all year, I consider fuel care costs to be part of prudent engine maintenance.

 

[oldgit]

At our boat club we have our own tank and supply Red to club members at cost plus a penny for maintaince of tanks and pumps etc.
Currently at £1.50 a litre, we add some snake oil and have been doing so since Noah was a club member.
Because some folks started extracting the urine regards the derogation split , a club decision was made that all fuel would only be supplied at 60/40 take it or leave it.

 

[Refueler]

I think Tesco have an arrangement with Esso. I’ve certainly seen them sharing forecourts away from major stores.
I’ve had advice from old friends in the motor maintenance trade, and the supermarket family member to avoid cheap supermarket diesel in my van because of the quality and low level of added detergents and lubricants in their ulsd compared to the premium grades sold at branded forecourts. There is probably some snake oil added to the price of such premium fuel by the time it gets to the nozzle, but for 30 litres sitting in my yacht tank all year, I consider fuel care costs to be part of prudent engine maintenance.

All fuel sold retail in UK as in any other country has to meet spec's ........

There can be a difference of regular S/market fuel to so called premium brand - but its really down to a very small difference. In diesel - virtually zero. In Petrol - that can have specific additions - but again not sufficient to lose sleep over.

Let me give an example where peoples buying 'premium grade' Petrol had catastrophic effect ......... a certain well known brand added a component that increased the 'burn' of the fuel and greater power resulted ... it had better mileage per litre .... till valves started burning out ...... I shall refrain from naming the company .... but I think many will recognise the event.

There are numerous storage terminals around the UK that receive ships cargos from various ..... those storage tanks feed into the general fuel system of UK. Not all fuel in UK comes from UK refinerys .... and there is no g'tee that the name on the side of the truck is where that fuel came from.

 

[NormanS]

Only part correct.

Kerosine is used in engines - particularly in Arctic conditions due to cold properties. In fact I used to oversee 1000's of tons of the stuff shipped out as Nanuk Diesel for Canada / Alaska ... but before use - it had Lubricity Additive added.

The reduction of Sulphur is the main factor that creates the Lubricity need. This is evident in ALL Diesels / Gasoils for road use etc. Years ago - Red was based on 0.2 ... 0.5% Sulphur Gasoil ... which then was reduced in stages along with 'White Diesel' ... such that the two are now usually same diesel but the Red Dye / Yellow Marker added to distinguish ...
They all carry Bio .........

I was replying to a query about using kerosene in a diesel engine, and I replied, correctly, that it is a no no. No mention was being made about mixing it with anything else. We all know that compression ignition engines will run on an astonishing varieties of fuels. Various vegetable oils, old chip pan oils etc, are acceptable, but not kerosene, unless, as you say, with the addition of a lubricant.

I had a Gardner 6L3 engine in a previous boat, and I can confirm that as stated by Beneteau381, that Gardner said in the engine handbook, that paraffin could be used as fuel, by the addition of filtered used sump oil. I was never tempted. ?