nigelm
Well-Known Member
Bob , my Countess has a 80 litre tank , I have 2 25litre plastic drums which I fill at a garage with 20 ltrs each , 2 trips and the tank is full after that just top up as required , that works for me anyway ..
Red diesel - reply from the Belgian Embassy
- Thread starter Burnham Bob
- Start date
Bob , my Countess has a 80 litre tank , I have 2 25litre plastic drums which I fill at a garage with 20 ltrs each , 2 trips and the tank is full after that just top up as required , that works for me anyway ..
samwise
Well-Known Member
The response from the Belgian official is interesting and supports my own theory that the other countries in the EU deeply resent that the Brits see themselves as an exception to the rule and see it as another example of our lukewarm commitment to Europe.
I'm not making a political point, but we (the Brits) do tend to join games late and then seek to change the rules which really pxxxxs off our friends across the water.
I strongly suspect that while the Brussels ruling on red diesel for us is as clear as these things ever are, the administrators at the sharp end are allowed a lot of leeway for "local interpretation" of those rules and will continue to carry out what amounts to harassment of UK boaters until we give in and conform.
The RYA bless 'em have tried very hard on our behalf but they must feel they are swimming in treacle, trying to get a hard and fast agreement from a bunch of double dealers.
I'm not making a political point, but we (the Brits) do tend to join games late and then seek to change the rules which really pxxxxs off our friends across the water.
I strongly suspect that while the Brussels ruling on red diesel for us is as clear as these things ever are, the administrators at the sharp end are allowed a lot of leeway for "local interpretation" of those rules and will continue to carry out what amounts to harassment of UK boaters until we give in and conform.
The RYA bless 'em have tried very hard on our behalf but they must feel they are swimming in treacle, trying to get a hard and fast agreement from a bunch of double dealers.
rhumlady
Well-Known Member
This will no doubt be sorted out just after they sort out the Eurozone crisis which should be any day now
mcframe
Well-Known Member
Quite ironic, given that the *whole point* of Belgium† is to provide a convenient point for British forces to land on the continent on a port not controlled by the French, Dutch or Germans - any/all of whom we've been at war with at various times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1839)
<disclaimer> I'm not planning on sailing there, and only fill up with red once a year - the rest of the time, I just top up with white from a 5l jerry can chucked in the car boot & thence dinghy.
† Oh, OK , apart from the chocolate, and the beer, and Mercator, and Herge, and Plastic Bertrand, and Eddy Merckx, and Adolphe Sax, etc, etc ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1839)
<disclaimer> I'm not planning on sailing there, and only fill up with red once a year - the rest of the time, I just top up with white from a 5l jerry can chucked in the car boot & thence dinghy.
† Oh, OK , apart from the chocolate, and the beer, and Mercator, and Herge, and Plastic Bertrand, and Eddy Merckx, and Adolphe Sax, etc, etc ;-)
Sinc
Well-Known Member
How about a slightly different approach
It's clearly impossible for UK based boats to visit other EU countries without showing red diesel in the tank. And it's also almost impossible for other EU boats to visit the UK without 'contamination'.
This must surely infringe the basic EU principle of free movement of goods capital and labour.
Why don't we (or the RYA as our 'voice') engage a no win no fee legal firm to argue the case.
Failing this - 'Human Rights'?
It's clearly impossible for UK based boats to visit other EU countries without showing red diesel in the tank. And it's also almost impossible for other EU boats to visit the UK without 'contamination'.
This must surely infringe the basic EU principle of free movement of goods capital and labour.
Why don't we (or the RYA as our 'voice') engage a no win no fee legal firm to argue the case.
Failing this - 'Human Rights'?
Erwin Swart
Well-Known Member
Hey guys,
i don't get your point of getting a fine...
As a dutchmen we are not allowed to fill the tank with red diesel. It's not a point since all marina's only sell white diesel.
When we cross the channel we have to fill with red diesel which is fine since the customs know that this is the only available diesel in UK. As long if you have a receipt it's ok and you don't have any problems. Last year the customs controlled my boat when coming back from UK. I told them that I topped up with red diesel and showed the the receipt. They noted it and all was ok.
The only problem you will get is if you have red diesel without any receipt.
So there is no reason to worry at all.
hope this helped you.
grtz
i don't get your point of getting a fine...
As a dutchmen we are not allowed to fill the tank with red diesel. It's not a point since all marina's only sell white diesel.
When we cross the channel we have to fill with red diesel which is fine since the customs know that this is the only available diesel in UK. As long if you have a receipt it's ok and you don't have any problems. Last year the customs controlled my boat when coming back from UK. I told them that I topped up with red diesel and showed the the receipt. They noted it and all was ok.
The only problem you will get is if you have red diesel without any receipt.
So there is no reason to worry at all.
hope this helped you.
grtz
Tranona
Well-Known Member
If this was true then it would not be an issue.
Unfortunately there are well documented cases of both Dutch and Belgian customs refusing to accept receipts, even when accompanied by an official letter from the RYA explaining the UK policy - and levying fines.
It now seems "official" Belgian policy to apply fines.
If you read back over the threads on this subject you will see that the issue is not about payment of duty, but the use of "marked" - that is "red" diesel. You will also see that both the RYA and our government is challenging this interpretation of the law.
mucklestone
Well-Known Member
Just to confirm, the reason we cannot fill up from the road petrol station is because the maximum you are allowed to fill up is 5L in a plastic container or 10L in a metal container unless it is properly fitted in a vehicle. I believe the maximum is two cans each. I was in the car when my friend was warned by the police for this for having 20L in a plastic can...
However this is not widely enforced and I have seen someone filled empty 2L pop bottles!!!!!! There are also loads who use 20L jerry cans etc but do not get stopped from doing it.
Even if these rules were not in place it would still be differcult. It is OK for the small vessel but if your tank is more than say 50L it starts to become differcult!!!!
However this is not widely enforced and I have seen someone filled empty 2L pop bottles!!!!!! There are also loads who use 20L jerry cans etc but do not get stopped from doing it.
Even if these rules were not in place it would still be differcult. It is OK for the small vessel but if your tank is more than say 50L it starts to become differcult!!!!
sailorman
Well-Known Member
i think you are talking petrol regs here not Diesel
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
No he is right, no more than 5l of petrol or 10l of diesel in a plastic can , but it is not enforced very well.
prv
Well-Known Member
So how much diesel in a metal can? I have a couple of 20 litre jerries I've used during my various fuel tank shenanigans; curious whether they were ok in theory as well as in practice.
Pete
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
jfm made an interesting point on another thread - an EU Directive isn't law, just a directive to member states that they must introduce a law to that effect. On that basis, what is the Belgian or Dutch law that is being broken? Anyone know?
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
No red diesel for leisure boaters - professionals only.
It's not about 60/40, it's about the colour of the diesel.
Belgium and the UK were the last 2 countries in western Europe to sell red diesel to yachts.
When the tax concession went away, Belgian marinas were given a 6 month 'grace period' in which to sell the red diesel still in their tanks.
Before they were allowed to restock with white they were made to clean their tanks, so that there would be no traces of red.
Last edited:
Bru
Well-Known Member
Deja Vu strikes!
Right, fuel in containers off the forecourt ...
The standard types and quantities of fuel cans permitted under the usual site licence terms are ...
Up to 2 x 5l plastic
Up to 2 x 10l metal
1 x 23l metal
Also permitted are fuel tanks for portable appliances up to 30l (i.e. outboard tanks etc.)
Containers must be manufactured for the purpose of carrying fuel and marked as such with the appropriate EN or UN designations
UN type Jerry cans are permitted under the usual terms of the site petroluem licence but are often (due to difficulties of identification for forecourt staff) not permitted under the rules applied by forecourt operators
WWII style Jerry cans (the ones without a locking pin on the cap) are not permitted.
There is no differentiation between petrol and diesel (the licence simply states "fuel"). And the info on the HSE website is inaccurate when it claims that the limits on quantity of containers are the site operators decision - the above is explicitly set out in the text of our licence to dispense fuel at work for example
When it comes to the carriage of fuel in private vehicles, the situation is unclear and messy. There are very strict limits on how much petrol you can store within 6m of a domestic residence, including in a parked vehicle, or in a domestic shed (no more than two containers, max 10l each) but no limit on the carriage of either petrol or diesel for private use.
There is, in fact, nothing to stop you filling a dozen jerry cans on a dozen seperate occasions or at a dozen different filling stations and then taking them to the boat! (Although if it's petrol you're after rather than diesel you can't store them at home, not even one)
Now of course that we have a growing proliferation of unmanned sites with pay at pump pumps the whole situation becomes even sillier because who's going to stop you filling a dozen containers in one go at such a site? (The answer, I'm given to understand, is that such sites, in order to obtain a licence, are supposed to be monitored by CCTV and have staff available to take action if any problems arise. Yeah right!)
Right, fuel in containers off the forecourt ...
The standard types and quantities of fuel cans permitted under the usual site licence terms are ...
Up to 2 x 5l plastic
Up to 2 x 10l metal
1 x 23l metal
Also permitted are fuel tanks for portable appliances up to 30l (i.e. outboard tanks etc.)
Containers must be manufactured for the purpose of carrying fuel and marked as such with the appropriate EN or UN designations
UN type Jerry cans are permitted under the usual terms of the site petroluem licence but are often (due to difficulties of identification for forecourt staff) not permitted under the rules applied by forecourt operators
WWII style Jerry cans (the ones without a locking pin on the cap) are not permitted.
There is no differentiation between petrol and diesel (the licence simply states "fuel"). And the info on the HSE website is inaccurate when it claims that the limits on quantity of containers are the site operators decision - the above is explicitly set out in the text of our licence to dispense fuel at work for example
When it comes to the carriage of fuel in private vehicles, the situation is unclear and messy. There are very strict limits on how much petrol you can store within 6m of a domestic residence, including in a parked vehicle, or in a domestic shed (no more than two containers, max 10l each) but no limit on the carriage of either petrol or diesel for private use.
There is, in fact, nothing to stop you filling a dozen jerry cans on a dozen seperate occasions or at a dozen different filling stations and then taking them to the boat! (Although if it's petrol you're after rather than diesel you can't store them at home, not even one)
Now of course that we have a growing proliferation of unmanned sites with pay at pump pumps the whole situation becomes even sillier because who's going to stop you filling a dozen containers in one go at such a site? (The answer, I'm given to understand, is that such sites, in order to obtain a licence, are supposed to be monitored by CCTV and have staff available to take action if any problems arise. Yeah right!)
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
Right - I understand that, but that doesn't answer the question as to what particular Belgian law is being broken and what it says. If you're being fined for having red diesel then you must have broken a Belgian law. What is the wording of that law? Does the law actually say the diesel can't be red or that it can't be marked as tax-free? If it's the latter then the diesel isn't marked as tax-free because, in the UK at least, it's perfectly legal to sell Red diesel that is taxable. The Belgians can complain that the UK haven't followed the directive but they need to take that up with the UK government, not the individual.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what is happening. The Belgian are complying with the EU Marking Directive - nothing to do with duty. And as has been noted many times the RYA and our government is challenging both the Belgian interpretation and responding to EU demands that UK uses the same interpretation.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Ah! but the Netherlands is not Walloon Belgium.
Far too sensible!!
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
The problem is that in the UK both taxed and untaxed diesel are the same colour: red.
Polux
Well-Known Member
Obviously the Belgians consider that UK is illegally not complying with the directive and asked to Bruxels authorities if they are right or wrong and in the meantime they will fine everybody that has red diesel.
I have many doubts about the UK position about that directive and I think it will be a question of time before UK has to comply, but for what is worth in Spain near Gibraltar every Spanish yacht goes to Gibraltar for refilling.
One of the times I passed the strait I needed diesel and as I thought it was illegal to refuel in Gibraltar I went to Algeciras marina, the Spanish one near by. They have rusting pumps and of course, no fuel. They have just give up, nobody was going there anyway. That means the Spanish authorities are not pushing it as the Belgians are. The day they do that no British yacht would go out of Gibraltar without being finned.
lenseman
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 3 Jun 2006
- Messages
- 7,077
- Location
- South East Coast - United Kingdom
You are somewhat wrong with the above statement. The regulations are laid out in the Transportation of Dangerous Goods, HSE at Work Regs 1992 etc.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg51.pdf
See Section 9 and 12:
The law is quite clear, you cannot exceed the limit regarding petrol cans as this is the fuel which is covered by the British law as mentioned in HSE and DfT et al.
The fuel that is restricted has a flash point lower than 55°C and this covers petrol not diesel which is classified as a heavy oil. You will note in HSE section 12 it specifies a Flashpoint lower than 61°C because diesel is stated to have a flashpoint greater than 62°C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
Although petrol is listed as having a Flashpoint of -45°C ?
Unfortunately, petrol pump attendants and the petrol companies themselves seem to think the law applies to both petrol and diesel.
Companies such as Eurostar have their own rules in place and these state petrol and diesel, 2 x 5 litres cans maximum.