Red Diesel - Cleaning Boat Tanks

[Windhover]

This question is a follow on to the two other threads on red diesel currently running on this forum, but deliberately a seperate thread, as I want to ask a specific practical question.

The point has been made in one of the other threads that if I stop using red diesel, use up what is in my tank, and perhaps drain out the last little bit and dispose of it, and then fill up with white diesel, there will nevertheless be traces of red dye remaing in the tank and this will contaminate the white diesel for a long time to come - I think it was suggested that the red dye might be detectable for some years.

So, if the UK did move to selling white diesel for leisure users, how do we get our boat tanks clean, and free from any detectable trace of red dye?

My understanding is that leisure boat owners in Belgium, Holland etc used to be able to use red diesel, so they must presumably have faced this problem when the change was made to white there? I am hoping that one of the forum members based there can tell us.

If I'm wrong in my understanding, or it's easy to clean a boat tank then feel free to shoot me down !!

 

[westhinder]

In Belgium there were no provisions for cleaning tanks. Customs silently gave us a couple of years to get the red diesel flushed out naturally before they started levying fines systematically.

 

[PeterR]

Today I feel truly depressed. I have been running on white diesel for the last 3 years – mainly for the health of the diesel heater which the manufacturers say really does not like red. When the rip off prices of marinas are taken into account white is not much more expensive than red however it appears I am breaking the UK law by transporting it in my car. I have been told it can take a couple of years for farmers who have cheated by using red in their 4x4s for the chemical tracer in red to be diluted beyond the testing threshold and they fill up far more frequently than yachts do and usually run their fuel right down before doing so. I only get through a tank full a year and usually only let it get down to 2/3 full before topping up which means I don’t burn much of the tracer off I just dilute it by a third each time. Does anyone know what dilution of the base concentration of marker is required to become legal in Belgium?

Its probably not relevant because I see our government are still going ahead with the e-borders scheme of reporting 24 hours in advance before coming back from overseas. Added to which my flares are about to go out of date and I have no intention of replacing them as I have never had a flare fail when less than 12 years old. So, if the Belgians or French do not get me the UK will on my return. I think it is time to start dinghy sailing again.

 

[sailorman]

Today I feel truly depressed. I have been running on white diesel for the last 3 years – mainly for the health of the diesel heater which the manufacturers say really does not like red. When the rip off prices of marinas are taken into account white is not much more expensive than red however it appears I am breaking the UK law by transporting it in my car. I have been told it can take a couple of years for farmers who have cheated by using red in their 4x4s for the chemical tracer in red to be diluted beyond the testing threshold and they fill up far more frequently than yachts do and usually run their fuel right down before doing so. I only get through a tank full a year and usually only let it get down to 2/3 full before topping up which means I don’t burn much of the tracer off I just dilute it by a third each time. Does anyone know what dilution of the base concentration of marker is required to become legal in Belgium?

Its probably not relevant because I see our government are still going ahead with the e-borders scheme of reporting 24 hours in advance before coming back from overseas. Added to which my flares are about to go out of date and I have no intention of replacing them as I have never had a flare fail when less than 12 years old. So, if the Belgians or French do not get me the UK will on my return. I think it is time to start dinghy sailing again.

Some farmers used to fill red from bowers too but i dont suppose for one minute it was booked out for the tractor

 

[ffiill]

Red marker dye is added to diesel in the road tanker at the fuel depot to signify that it is not for road use.It was until recently that there was just one diesel product-so called high sulphur.
Initially this was phased out for use in vehicle engines running on public highways-remember the ads-low sulphur;cleaner diesel etc .More recently any land based diesel engine must run on low sulphur diesel-plant and machinery;generators;tractors etc.
Result is that there are now two diesel products-high sulphur for boats and central heating and low sulphur for land based diesel engines.As a result there is now low sulphur white;low sulphur dyed red and high sulphur dyed red.
Suggestion that the red dye does the heater any harm I find hard to believe as diesel is diesel is diesel.
Anyone can buy either high or low sulphur duty free(red) diesel;carry it in your vehicle;store it in a tank.
Its what you do with it that determines as to whether you have broken any law.

 

[NormanS]

This is what's recommended:

Q7: Will my Eberspacher heater run on red diesel and how often will it need servicing?

Answer:
"Our heater products are designed to run on fuel to specification BS EN 590 as stated in the Technical book that accompanies all heaters."

It is commonly thought that red diesel is road diesel with a red dye in it. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. There are two types of red diesel available, one is Gas Oil with red dye, and the other is Low Sulphur Gas Oil (City Gas Oil) with a red dye. The latter meets BS EN 590 and has the same specification as road diesel.

We have contacted a couple of Fuel Suppliers to ascertain "what exactly is it in the fuel that makes it different".

The main differences between "Gas Oil (non BS EN 590)" and Low Sulphur Gas Oil (to BS EN 590), is the former has a lower 'Cetane rating' 46 against 52, higher sulphur %Wt 0.2 against 0.005, higher Flash point 82 against 67 and Carbon residue, on 10% distillation residue, %Wt .12 against <0.001.

The fuel commonly found on the canal system is unfortunately "Gas Oil". The other "Red diesel" available is called "City Gas Oil" (ultra low sulphur gas oil) (Linton Fuel Oil Ltd Stock code 103). This meets BS EN 590 and apparently costs the marina only 1.5 pence more per litre. Our contact was quoted saying "why anyone chooses to buy normal gas oil, I don't know!" another supplier was challenged to why it was not always offered he said "surprisingly no one asks for it but it is readily available."

We have found boat owners using the better quality fuel to have a longer period between servicing, therefore what is needed are people like you demanding this far superior fuel. I am sure you would be happy to pay a few pence more for better fuel.

In answer to your servicing questions our heaters have a service interval of approximately 2000 hrs, this can be adversely affected by the use of Gas Oil (non BS EN 590), bacterial or water contamination. We have many customers who have taken onboard the advice we have given in the past regarding additives and now have far longer service intervals. Additives such as 'Fultron' are available from all good chandlers and stockists.


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[Burnham Bob]

As I understand it, checking is done by dipping and by eye. What I intend to do is run the tank low before I go abroad, shut off the fuel line, drain the tank - or more likely suck all the red diesel out with a SEAGO pump - and store it in a large jerry can I have in the garage for use when I return. (Any crud will have settled at the bottom of the tank and will separate out during the jerry can storage so I hope to clean the tank at the same time to get some personal benefit from the enforced activity!) I have a reasonably small tank - no more than 25 - 30 litres at a guess.

So when I come to top up with white diesel carried laboriously from the local garage, I will have at minimum 25 litres of white diesel and say a litre of red left in the tank at the outside. Any pink tinge will therefore be very difficult to see. The remaining red diesel will be in the fuel lines and filters - well past the point where tank dipping can reach it and I am sure will be burnt off in an hour or so's motoring. Topping up in France will further dilute the pink.

Its a p**n in the *rs* but it must surely be enough to get me round the belgian customs visual check. With a bigger tank it would be even more work, but the principle is the same.

 

[westhinder]

As I understand it, checking is done by dipping and by eye. What I intend to do is run the tank low before I go abroad, shut off the fuel line, drain the tank - or more likely suck all the red diesel out with a SEAGO pump - and store it in a large jerry can I have in the garage for use when I return. (Any crud will have settled at the bottom of the tank and will separate out during the jerry can storage so I hope to clean the tank at the same time to get some personal benefit from the enforced activity!) I have a reasonably small tank - no more than 25 - 30 litres at a guess.

So when I come to top up with white diesel carried laboriously from the local garage, I will have at minimum 25 litres of white diesel and say a litre of red left in the tank at the outside. Any pink tinge will therefore be very difficult to see. The remaining red diesel will be in the fuel lines and filters - well past the point where tank dipping can reach it and I am sure will be burnt off in an hour or so's motoring. Topping up in France will further dilute the pink.

Its a p**n in the *rs* but it must surely be enough to get me round the belgian customs visual check. With a bigger tank it would be even more work, but the principle is the same.

I am seriously thinking of doing something similar to get rid of the red diesel we filled up with in St Peter Port, only our tank is 180 liters and transporting and storing it would be a real headache.

 

[Halo]

The higher sulphur level does form more acid (sulphur dioxide from bruning the sulphur combines with water generated from combustion of hydrogen molecules produces sulpurous acid) requiring more frequent oil changes to prevent engine damage and sludge build up. On the other hand the sulphur acts as a lubricant before combustion which helps reduce wear on the injection system. So for those staying UK there are plusses and minuses for both options. I would choose low sulphur to minimise the level of fumes when locking out.
All the other red diesel debate wont stop me going to Belgium - life is to short to let the risk of a fine stopping me doing what I want and personally i like Belgium and the Belgians greatly.

 

[Burnham Bob]

I want to go to Belgium too Halo - which is why I started the two other threads on Belgium and red diesel - but the threat of a surcharge (which is what the fine is) of 500 Euros for visiting Belgium is a real problem. Hence the arduous task of draining the tank. If the UK government thinks it's right, maybe the only way round things is an indemnity against fines from our government. You produce the receipt for the fine from the Belgians, the UK Government sends you the cash and knocks it off our EU contributions.

One member of staff could do the work - and there are enough civil servants facing redundancy to make it easy to find one - and the amounts would be so small the EU officials won't be a*sed to chase up the cash for the UK shortfall.

 

[NormanS]

I want to go to Belgium too Halo - which is why I started the two other threads on Belgium and red diesel - but the threat of a surcharge (which is what the fine is) of 500 Euros for visiting Belgium is a real problem. Hence the arduous task of draining the tank. If the UK government thinks it's right, maybe the only way round things is an indemnity against fines from our government. You produce the receipt for the fine from the Belgians, the UK Government sends you the cash and knocks it off our EU contributions.

One member of staff could do the work - and there are enough civil servants facing redundancy to make it easy to find one - and the amounts would be so small the EU officials won't be a*sed to chase up the cash for the UK shortfall.

Just bear in mind that the "Government" doesn't have any money. The government uses taxpayers money - my money. I won't be paying fines so that you can enjoy visiting Belgium.

 

[maby]

I want to go to Belgium too Halo - which is why I started the two other threads on Belgium and red diesel - but the threat of a surcharge (which is what the fine is) of 500 Euros for visiting Belgium is a real problem. Hence the arduous task of draining the tank. If the UK government thinks it's right, maybe the only way round things is an indemnity against fines from our government. You produce the receipt for the fine from the Belgians, the UK Government sends you the cash and knocks it off our EU contributions.

One member of staff could do the work - and there are enough civil servants facing redundancy to make it easy to find one - and the amounts would be so small the EU officials won't be a*sed to chase up the cash for the UK shortfall.

It's not our government's fault - it's our marinas' fault...

 

[sailorman]

Just bear in mind that the "Government" doesn't have any money. The government uses taxpayers money - my money. I won't be paying fines so that you can enjoy visiting Belgium.

I have infact paid in more than enough £s over my lifetime to self fund the scheme
Beel ye Heed

 

[Burnham Bob]

NormanS - please read the whole of my suggestion - which wasn't entirely serious! - about the UK government repaying brits the fines the belgians impose. I did suggest that the cost was deducted from our EU payments so your money is safe.

 

[NormanS]

I have infact paid in more than enough £s over my lifetime to self fund the scheme
Beel ye Heed

Good for you. I hope you are still contributing hugely.

PS. I think you mean "Awa an bile yer heid".

 

[sailorman]

Good for you. I hope you are still contributing hugely.

PS. I think you mean "Awa an bile yer heid".

One is soon to reduce payment to HMRC

 

[David2452]

The next time somebody comes offering to tarmac your drive ask them how to do it, they are experts.

 

[aquaplane]

This question is a follow on to the two other threads on red diesel currently running on this forum, but deliberately a seperate thread, as I want to ask a specific practical question.

The point has been made in one of the other threads that if I stop using red diesel, use up what is in my tank, and perhaps drain out the last little bit and dispose of it, and then fill up with white diesel, there will nevertheless be traces of red dye remaing in the tank and this will contaminate the white diesel for a long time to come - I think it was suggested that the red dye might be detectable for some years.

I used to believe that the die stained the fuel system so that a trace of red marked the system for life, that is just a scare tactic. I don't believe that you should have to drain off red diesel and dispose of it, dilution should be good enough.

One way would be to use as much as you feel comfortable with and then just add a bit of tax paid, say a gallon. Keep doing that and each time it'll get more dilute. It may take a while. It'll be much quicker if you run the tank empty as many times as it takes but I wouldn't fancy all the priming and bleeding never having had to do it I'm not sure how easy it is.

If you only use 1 tank full per year the first dilution will be much more if you fill up, but it'll take ages to use it up and ages to get it red free.