RED Diesel again NI and the EU

[Capt Popeye]

I saw the other day , on a News Feed , that the sittuation in NI re the supply /use of RED Diesel for Receational Yachts and Motor Vessels is under attack by the EU (of all peoples?) Not having kept up with the issues , is this a current problem ?

can I please ask , is the supply for recreation vessels OK in GB or UK ? so is not NI part of our wider Country ?

 

[Seven Spades]

When Great Britain left the EU in effect Northern Ireland did not so in effect Northern Ireland is subject to EU law. This means that it is no longer legal to purchase marked fuel in Northern Ireland. You can however buy your marked fuel in the UK and use it quite legally in the rest of the EU if you are in a "third country" vessel. It is part of a UN treaty. If you join the CA they have chapter and verse on this. Whikst we were members we had to show that we haid paid the tax on the marked fuel but now as we have left a different set of rules apply.

 

[B27]

Presumably EU inc NI yachts visiting Scotland will need to only buy white diesel, which may be awkward?

Some EU boats around here seem to sail everywhere and avoid using any fuel!

 

[Momac]

, is the supply for recreation vessels OK in GB or UK ? so is not NI part of our wider Country ?

Yes you can legally buy red diesel for use in your boat in your boat in the UK
Except in NI the supplied diesel is white for the reason explained above.

The fine imposed on the UK by the EU is about diesel supplied for use in boats before the UK left the EU .

NI is still part of the UK except for the complication that it is treated as part of the EU for duty purposes . All very complicated .

 

[Sandy]

Presumably EU inc NI yachts visiting Scotland will need to only buy white diesel, which may be awkward?

Some EU boats around here seem to sail everywhere and avoid using any fuel!

How is it awkward?

When I last went home a) there were filling stations and b) Marks and Spencer had opened a foodhall in Fort William.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

How is it awkward?

When I last went home a) there were filling stations and b) Marks and Spencer had opened a foodhall in Fort William.

Because a) Carrying cans of fuel around is slow and inefficient if you don't have access to a car and b) dockside refueling points invariably supply red diesel because their largest customers are commercial users.

 

[rotrax]

I had no trouble filling with red in NI last year.

But then I know my way around over there.......................................

Getting white dockside was just about impossible. 600 litres of red was supplied by the guys who do the fishing boats.

Until white is available dockside boaters will use what they can get.

In the Republic at Kilmore Quay, green only is available from the self service pump. Unless you can it, no white.

Unless it has changed since last year.

 

[ylop]

can I please ask , is the supply for recreation vessels OK in GB or UK ? so is not NI part of our wider Country ?

Can I please ask, is there anyone in GB who cares about NI’s place in the U.K. (either way) who doesn’t already know the answer to this? and the implication of the arrangements for NI with the EU of all people?

Seems like trolling to bring up politics by the back door.

 

[ylop]

Some EU boats around here seem to sail everywhere and avoid using any fuel!

crazy talk… we’ll be calling them sailing boats next!

 

[Sandy]

Because a) Carrying cans of fuel around is slow and inefficient if you don't have access to a car and b) dockside refueling points invariably supply red diesel because their largest customers are commercial users.

A) I have never found it so, but I enjoy a walk and admit I rarely use more than 100 ltr a year, b) I was shocked at the price of red in Falmouth this year £1.75* a ltr when I was getting it at £1.50 in my local supermarket and c) having caught a dose of the fuel bug from a marina with low stock turn over vowed never to use it again!

*If somebody could work out the 60/40 rate that would be a better comparison.

 

[lustyd]

Yes you can legally buy red diesel for use in your boat in your boat in the UK
Except in NI the supplied diesel is white for the reason explained above.

To be clear your first sentence should have said Great Britain, which is an island like Ireland but larger. The United Kingdom’s of Great Britain and Northern Ireland include the north of the island of Ireland and so it’s incorrect to say UK in this instance since you explicitly didn’t mean Northern Ireland which follows EU law as you said in your second sentence.

 

[Humblebee]

Can I please ask, is there anyone in GB who cares about NI’s place in the U.K. (either way) who doesn’t already know the answer to this? and the implication of the arrangements for NI with the EU of all people?

Seems like trolling to bring up politics by the back door.

Doesn't look like trolling to me. The situation isn't particularly clear and the CA advice dates from 2021. The latest advice I can find is this;


https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2023-09/cp230149en.pdf

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm personnaly I have never filled up with Red Diesel , as any boats that were Diesel operated , have been others boats , maily Commercial Fishing or Boat Yard boats : I understood many many years ago that Red diesel came about as one did not need to pay Duty on Diesel fuel if going Foreign , so the understanding over Duty was attributed to the premis that Boats were leaving the UK sailing into International Waters so Fuel Duty was not required .
Might ask , if ever my understanding was correct , or not ?

Thank you , except Yolop whos a bit offside on this issue

 

[Glisferox]

I'd be cautious about white diesel in NI, there has been a long history of 'cleaned' red diesel sold as white. Fuel smuggling and cleaning was so rife that I don't recall Customs dipping tanks once diesel cars became common. I was told once that there were only two petrol stations near us that were legit, one because he was 'clean living', the other because he'd just been caught and had to be good for a while.

 

[black mercury]

You'll be fine in the bigger marinas in NI. They sell white diesel and the quality is good. If you do happen to visit get talking to some of the locals, they will point you in the right direction to get red diesel at the pump without paying white diesel prices. They might even drive you to get it. Incidentally a boat in NI can have red diesel in the tanks for propulsion if the owner has kept receipts from a fuel purchase in Scotland, even if it's only 20 litres, it is a sailboat after all.

 

[ylop]

I understood many many years ago that Red diesel came about as one did not need to pay Duty on Diesel fuel if going Foreign , so the understanding over Duty was attributed to the premis that Boats were leaving the UK sailing into International Waters so Fuel Duty was not required .
Might ask , if ever my understanding was correct , or not ?

Your understanding was not.

Thank you , except Yolop whos a bit offside on this issue

I’m still confused which part of this has come as a surprise to you? That NI is effectively still in the EU or that Red Diesel is not permitted in pleasure craft in the EU? Or perhaps that UK didn’t care enough about NI leisure sailors to essentially ignore the EU as it had done in the run up to Brexit?

But if you don’t have a diesel boat, never mind a one you plan to sail to/from NI, I’m even more surprised this is a burning issue for you.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Your understanding was not.

I’m still confused which part of this has come as a surprise to you? That NI is effectively still in the EU or that Red Diesel is not permitted in pleasure craft in the EU? Or perhaps that UK didn’t care enough about NI leisure sailors to essentially ignore the EU as it had done in the run up to Brexit?

But if you don’t have a diesel boat, never mind a one you plan to sail to/from NI, I’m even more surprised this is a burning issue for you.

WEll if my understanding about RED DIesel being ok for UK boats travelling abroad , as they need not pay Tax if using the Diesel when abroad , why is there RED Diesel at all ? Surely commercial boats use Red Diesel ?

 

[B27]

'Red Diesel' is a simplification.
In the EU, they mark their 'red' low tax diesel with a specific dye, which AIUI on its own is actually yellow-ish.
It's called euromarker. It can be tested for down to silly levels of dilution.
In the EU, it's an offence to have this dye in the diesel of a leisure boat. No excuses, doesn't matter where it came from etc.
Is UK red diesel now different?
Maybe it's a different red dye, not containing euromarker?
You can add fuel treatments to your diesel car which have a bit of colour to them, but hopefully not 'euromarker'.

I was talking to a dutch sailor about this, he thought it was OK to buy UK red diesel because it's not EU red diesel, or some thing may have got lost in the language gap.

If you buy red and go to euroland, you need to know this stuff.

 

[ylop]

WEll if my understanding about RED DIesel being ok for UK boats travelling abroad , as they need not pay Tax if using the Diesel when abroad , why is there RED Diesel at all ? Surely commercial boats use Red Diesel ?

- “red diesel” is fuel which full fuel duty has not been paid for (it is more properly referred to as Marked Fuel Oil or Rebated Fuel). To indicate this it is dyed - in the UK this is traditionally red. Historically a single red dye was added but there’s a bit of a constant battle between those who launder red fuel (wash they dye out to avoid detection - often to sell it on to the public at the price of “white” diesel pocketing the difference!). So there will typically be a mix of “dyes” added some of which are easy to detect with a roadside (or presumably dockside) test kit and some which require laboratory instruments.
- red diesel is and always has been permitted in certain types of engine provided it is used for certain purposes. Historically the main reason for the duty to apply was for road use - so all boats were fine, overtime the rules get tighter but it has never been about going foreign - canal boats were some of the most vocal complainers about the changes!
- under EU rules these things are supposed to be harmonised between states and when we were part of the EU they pointed out that the agree rules provided an exemption to commercial use on boats but not leisure use.
- After much argument (someone in the high echelons of HMRC must own a boat or have shares in Premier Marinas!) they introduced the current 60/40 self declared tax rules. Other EU states still didnt like this because they actually pay people to check ordinary people follow rules and how is their man in the customs boat supposed to know if you are using “legit” red from a Marina or dodgy red you got from your farmyard tank.
- Post Brexit the 60/40 rule is still in place and UK are ignoring protests from our neighbours; but as NI is much more aligned to EU rules you can’t use red there for a leisure boat (but you can use white with the 60/40 rate applied I believe)
- petrol boats have no such luxury but commercial petrol boats can reclaim the duty retrospectively

PS anyone buying UK red and assuming it doesn’t contain EU “tax markers” so will cause them no issues when they take their boat home is likely in for a nasty shock if they get tested! it doesn’t matter it it’s green (ROI), yellow, red or blue - if it doesn’t look like white, or when applies to the road side kit gives a positive it will go to a lab who will almost certainly be looking for all the labels.

 

[kippers26]

Has anyone ever had their fuel tested by HMRC or actually seen them in a marina or harbour checking fuel ?