Red diesel, a result?

[samwise]

The powers that be seem to think that the HMRC decision on red diesel is a good result, a triumph for common sense etc. I may have it wrong but :
1. We are going to be paying top dollar duty on pretty much bottom quality fuel.
2. We are going to be saddled with more paperwork and receipt keeping to prove how much fuel we use for heating etc and how much for propulsion. I can already visualise the gleam in the French ( Dutch or whatever) customs man's eye as he gets ready for a series of rewarding (for him) spot checks.
3. What happened to the "green" initiative? As I understand it, red diesel has a higher sulphur content and, as far as your engine is concerned, contains none of the additives that help it to run better and cleaner.
The French and the Spanish are able to provide separate pumps that supply fuel to commercial and leisure boats.
I strongly suspect that this is not the end of it. We still remain out of step with the EU on this and it is only a matter of time before the whole thing boils up again and the squeeze comes on for full compliance. Far from achieving a simple solution , this "result" is a fudge.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yes I agree a fudge worthy of Sir Humphry but having just cleaned out my tank and installed a new engine I have every intention of buying my white diesel at the local supermarket which I am sure will be cheaper, cleaner and better than the duty paid red on offer at the local marinas. A pain in the proverbial but should have all the benifits of the above and no hassle when I visit the shores of our EU bretheren.

 

[Norman_E]

Good plan IMHO, but only viable because you will only presumably need a couple of jerrycans at a time at most. Owners of big MOBOs are well and truly stuffed by this dim "solution" the civil servants have dreamed up.

 

[Talulah]

I see the current decision as an interim measure. No one has to do much upfront and hence no investments needed in new pumps etc. The infrastructure stays the same. In time I suspect we will see dates set where the infrastructure will have to change with separate pumps etc. Give it a couple of years for people to get used to paying the higher prices and then watch as HMRC up the anti, moving the goal posts in order to collect more revenue.

 

[oldgit]

"high sulphur content"........ exactly what my ancient Volvos need to keep valves and assorted other bits and pieces working.

 

[Norman_E]

I also think the sulphur gives you a bit of extra power. I noticed my diesel car's fuel consumption went up slightly when switched over to the low sulphur stuff, probably because I compensated for lower power output with a heavier right foot.

 

[ms1]

low sulphur road fuel has higher cetane value and therefore more power than the contaminated muck we typically buy at marina outlets. Modern road fuels have additives to deal with lunricity issues. You will get cheaper and better fuel if you can it up and lug in in.

 

[Heckler]

was just going to say that, peeps dont realise and shoot from the hip plus they also forget that the sulphur burning actually gives more power!! any probs from sulphur causing acidic conditions in engine oil is balanced out by the fact that we all change our oil and filters every season, dont we?
stu

 

[Nico]

[ QUOTE ]
Good plan IMHO, but only viable because you will only presumably need a couple of jerrycans at a time at most. Owners of big MOBOs are well and truly stuffed by this dim "solution" the civil servants have dreamed up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Result. Everybody should pay the same duty on fuel and if you are finding it expensive then put the bloody sails up.

 

[Norman_E]

In Turkey where I sail we have always paid road fuel prices. My comment was directed towards the fact red diesel for boats is going to end up costing more than road fuel in the UK, but may be of poorer quality. The owner of a small yacht who sails it and only needs to run the engine part of the time can buy diesel from a garage, and take cans to the boat, but the owner of the MOBO cannot carry enough.

 

[Norman_E]

True, but does low sulphur road fuel have any better cetane value than the higher sulphur road fuel we had a before? Certainly my car seemed better on the old stuff, and the stuff which was sold in France after we changed over to low sulphur also seemed better.
I remember from school chemistry that sulphur is an ingredient of gunpwder (along with saltpetre and charcoal) so I guess it has a pretty high calorific value.

 

[brianhumber]

Norman, years ago Red diesel was basic Gas oil to which Red dye was added. The same stuff was sold uncoloured as DERV Diesel Engine Road Vechicle which was taxed of course. Any refinery could fill a tanker up and that fuel was sold to any other company. You can also get lower grades of Oil as the larger engines were developed to run on lower and lower quality fuel until you ended up with bunker C or even worse Atmosheric Residue which is just one step better than tar with an SG of 1 or higher

When chemists started adding additives then this stopped and companies tended to keep to their own products and market them as better than the competion.

Low sulphur fuel does reduce the lubrication qualities and alters the speed of propogation of the flame front in the cylinder. Hence other less harmful things are added to restore
some of these qualities whilst ensuring the complete charge of fuel is burnt on each firing stroke. It has been found that the lube oils need tweaking as well. A lot of MN ships running on sulphur fuel now have to change to low sulphur bunker on entering the EU and have exprienced high engine wear as a result.

To finally answer your question I suspect low sulphur fuel does reduce power slightly, I exprimented a few months ago by adding Cetane to my fuel and on my old engine power up a long hill seemed to be better. The Shell V plus does the same but I do not think the extra expense is worth it myself.
Brian

 

[cliffordpope]

What's going to happen to low-tax red diesel for farmers and other off-road users?

 

[PeterGibbs]

Compared to the nightmare that HMRC could have foist on us in the name of the much abused "fairness" I think we have come out pretty well. Matelots know that availability would have shrunk significantly had red been permitted in future only to commercials, requiring us all to purge tanks etc.
Definitely not a "result" !

In the scheme of things, the green creds of marine diesel are not a major issue. The duty hike will certainly reduce diesel consumption - the best way to serve the planet - how could it be otherwise?

And some folks will carry cans of diesel from the cheaper forecourts. Anyone who'se done this (I have of occasional necessity) knows how darned heavy they are!


MOBO's are another case - looked at over the long term, the cost of running one of these boats out of a UK port is going to be prohibitive to all but the oligarchs. Oil prices and excise are on a continuous rise as far as one can see. Perhaps we are about to see a number of MOBO's registered as commercials, relocated to the Channel Islands and other devices to avoid the cost pressures. No surprises there!

Let's admit, on fuller consideration, we've come out better than our worst fears...

PWG

 

[Norman_E]

Interesting thought. Any farmers on here? Cheap red diesel for tractor use must have the same dye in it as the newly expensive stuff for boats.

 

[Seven Spades]

Without a doubt this decision is going to cause a great deal of confusion to foreign customs who are not likely to know that we can still buy red diesel legally in the UK and impound/fine any boat owner who has topped up in Great Britain. It won't just be british registered boats that are going to suffer these problems, visiting yachts will be caught out as well.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Is the fuel in the channel Islands Red or clear. What happens if we fill up there, and then go to France? Is it just a case of retaining the receipts?

How on earth can we decide on how much fuel we will burn in our Heating systems and the generator - both of which can be run from non duty fuel?????

Whilst you are outside UK waters (3 mile limit), are you not allowed to use non duty fuel? WHat are the import rules if you fill up in a non tax environment like the Channel Islands, because if it is allowed, I am sure that someone could set up a legitimate supply offshore, perhaps on the east coast forts?

 

[ckris]

I hadn't cottoned onto the distinction for domestic use. Whilst we don't honestly use the Eberspacher that much we are on a mid-river mooring and well over half our engine hours are for charging the batteries. Is that right this would be lower duty as for domestic use? If I said (honestly) 60% of fuel was for this what reaction am I going to get and would I need to be able to prove it?

 

[davies]

Diesel in the CI is the road variety (at least at Beaucette).

 

[ms1]

in theory you will be able to use red diesel for heating. how that will be administered is anyones guess.
NOrman E makes the real point - if we are paying full road rate (marinas will charge us more) we should be buying decent uncontaminated fuel and not the water laden, solids contaminated muck than many marinas and fuel barges have been dishing out for years. at the new price we should expect quality and we should not have to have a sophisticated regime of filtering to get clean fuel to our engines.