Recycled (Circular Economy or Closed Loop) Sail Manufacturing

You need to talk to a real plastics expert, I have worked with such people in industry.
The short version seems to be UV breaks bonds in polymer chains, which then allows oxygen to react with the carbon compounds.
Thus the chains are grossly weakened.
UV exposed plastic is normally only good for low grade re-use, or needs a lot of re-processing, to the point where it takes more resources that starting with new stock.
The best course of action, from a proper ecological point of view is often incineration if a low-grade re-use cannot be made to work.
These issues are not specific to sails, or even polyester.

I've got a good book on racing with cotton sails if that's a help?
 
solosails said:
However, I am loosing all hope, I don't think anyone really wants to help get involved which is a real shame.
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Perhaps one of the South coast unis might be interested as a collaborative project. Trade bodies such as British Plastics Federation might also be worth contacting.

Well worth posting here though and you gained valuable info, albeit not the info you wanted to hear!
 
solosails said:
How right you are,... it's all about money. Says it all really doesn't it?

I am sickened by this world sometimes.
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No it's not just about money, it is about resources too.
It often takes more in resources to recycle things than to start again.
When there's no money to be made, that sometimes tells us there's no point from a resources aspect.
 
lw395 said:
You need to talk to a real plastics expert, I have worked with such people in industry.
The short version seems to be UV breaks bonds in polymer chains, which then allows oxygen to react with the carbon compounds.
Thus the chains are grossly weakened.
UV exposed plastic is normally only good for low grade re-use, or needs a lot of re-processing, to the point where it takes more resources that starting with new stock.
The best course of action, from a proper ecological point of view is often incineration if a low-grade re-use cannot be made to work.
These issues are not specific to sails, or even polyester.

I've got a good book on racing with cotton sails if that's a help?
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Brilliant information. I think I do need to go and get some expert advice here and come back with some proper research.

I originally posted here just to get a feel about such a project from the users point of view, in hindsight I shouldn't have mentioned anything about a deposit scheme, this obviously brought too many negative arguments on the real issue.
 
lw395 said:
No it's not just about money, it is about resources too.
It often takes more in resources to recycle things than to start again.
When there's no money to be made, that sometimes tells us there's no point from a resources aspect.
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Or it tells us we need to re-think the product from the ground up perhaps?
 
obmij said:
Perhaps one of the South coast unis might be interested as a collaborative project. Trade bodies such as British Plastics Federation might also be worth contacting.

Well worth posting here though and you gained valuable info, albeit not the info you wanted to hear!
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+1 Thanks for the ideas
 
Think you are mistaken about nobody being interest in the principle of recycling or reducing the consumption of resources. However one needs to be realistic about what is feasible rather than berating people if they come across as negative. Recycling works easily if it is economically viable - probably before your time but the Scouts used to raise large sums recycling newspaper until everybody got in on the act and the price fell. One of the big sources of waste paper is now council recycling - and guess what, this is subsidised to meet political objectives. On the other hand, where I live we have green recycling. Subsidised initially to get it going, but now £37 a year. High level of take up because it fills an economic need - that is people are prepared to pay to have their garden rubbish collected from their house. Bins just been collected and in our road there is at least 50% take up.

So to pursue your objective you need to find a way of making it worthwhile to the people who will provide the material for recycling. You have to start from getting the reprocessing bit working - like our green recycling plant which took getting on for 10 years to make a decent return for its investors. The alternative is political subsidy, but I can't see such a minority interest attracting political attention.
 
solosails said:
Or it tells us we need to re-think the product from the ground up perhaps?
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I see sails as a consumable product, one of many in my life.
If you could design sails that lasted longer, cost less and went faster, that would be good.

Sails use resources, but are those resources excessive?
If you truly believe they are, you're possibly in the wrong job?

If you really want to work on resource use, I suspect there is a lot more 'low hanging fruit' than sails.
 
Tranona said:
Think you are mistaken about nobody being interest in the principle of recycling or reducing the consumption of resources. However one needs to be realistic about what is feasible rather than berating people if they come across as negative. Recycling works easily if it is economically viable - probably before your time but the Scouts used to raise large sums recycling newspaper until everybody got in on the act and the price fell. One of the big sources of waste paper is now council recycling - and guess what, this is subsidised to meet political objectives. On the other hand, where I live we have green recycling. Subsidised initially to get it going, but now £37 a year. High level of take up because it fills an economic need - that is people are prepared to pay to have their garden rubbish collected from their house. Bins just been collected and in our road there is at least 50% take up.

So to pursue your objective you need to find a way of making it worthwhile to the people who will provide the material for recycling. You have to start from getting the reprocessing bit working - like our green recycling plant which took getting on for 10 years to make a decent return for its investors. The alternative is political subsidy, but I can't see such a minority interest attracting political attention.
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Thank you.

Like the Scouts scheme, this is what I mean, it seems like a little amount of cloth now, but if everyone gets involved, we are talking tons and tons of plastic, and then it becomes financially viable, right now it isn't because nobody is doing it. (Blue Peter Bottle tops?)

What is needed is an active positive approach from everyone involved (sailmakers, cloth manufacturers, users and recycling companies) to get it going.

It may seem like a small amount to the user, as they just see their own sails every day and think it isn't worth worrying about, but actually when you add it up worldwide, it's huge. I mean the last delivery of cloth to us here weighed 70KG, and this is coming in every other day, this is just a small loft, imagine what the huge lofts are getting through? It really is tonnes of plastic every day.

How many plastic bottles does it take to be worth while recycling? Due to the amount of space they take up in the container, you would get more weight of plastic per pickup in a load of sails than in a load of bottles by far, but they are both PET
 
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lw395 said:
I see sails as a consumable product, one of many in my life.
If you could design sails that lasted longer, cost less and went faster, that would be good.

Sails use resources, but are those resources excessive?
If you truly believe they are, you're possibly in the wrong job?

If you really want to work on resource use, I suspect there is a lot more 'low hanging fruit' than sails.
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What I do like about sails is that they are by definition the most efficient forms of transport in the world. I have sailed over 150,000 miles powered on the most part by sails - No OIL.

I spend the most part of my day making them more efficient, lighter, stronger etc However, that doesn't mean that when their life is over, they should be dumped.

Yes, there are many more wasteful things out there, but I care about this one, a lot.
 
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solosails said:
However, I am loosing all hope, I don't think anyone really wants to help get involved which is a real shame.

I don't think there has been a single argument in favor of this proposal here. I thought I was going to be met with overwhelming support, how wrong I was. I'll just quietly carry on trying to do something about it by myself.

Thanks for your views everyone, happy sailing!
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Please don't get downhearted, Solosails, it is a good idea. I just think you need to focus on getting the waste plastics recovered in the most environmental way possible, rather than reborn as new sails made from uv-degraded used cloth/fibres. At the end of the day, most of us sailors want to be good environmentalists and would be delighted to hand over any used sails to a sailmaker for recycling if they could assure us that it wasn't simply going to end up in landfill.

(Edit: A bit like what Tranona just said, which I hadn't read before posting).
 
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Angele said:
Please don't get downhearted, Solosails, it is a good idea. I just think you need to focus on getting the waste plastics recovered in the most environmental way possible, rather than reborn as new sails made from uv-degraded used cloth/fibres. At the end of the day, most of us sailors want to be good environmentalists and would be delighted to hand over any used sails to a sailmaker for recycling if they could assure us that it wasn't simply going to end up in landfill.
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Thank you.
 
solosails said:
.....
How many plastic bottles does it take to be worth while recycling? Due to the amount of space they take up in the container, you would get more weight of plastic per pickup in a load of sails than in a load of bottles by far, but they are both PET
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PET is not polyester. Plastics is a big subject.
Bottles are worth recyling because there is a vast steady stream of them, whereas sails would be much less and seasonal.
Even so, most of the EPT from bottles ends up lower grade, it is not true recycling in your 'circular' sense.
I think a lot is used for fabrics, alas not nice strong sailcloth.
Also un-recycled bottles are a nuisance, when did you last see a sail in a hedgerow?
 
lw395 said:
PET is not polyester. Plastics is a big subject.
Bottles are worth recyling because there is a vast steady stream of them, whereas sails would be much less and seasonal.
Even so, most of the EPT from bottles ends up lower grade, it is not true recycling in your 'circular' sense.
I think a lot is used for fabrics, alas not nice strong sailcloth.
Also un-recycled bottles are a nuisance, when did you last see a sail in a hedgerow?
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Polyester (PET)
Polyethylene terephthalate, the most common type of polyester, is the most common fiber used in sailcloth; it is also commonly referred to by the brand name Dacron. PET has excellent resiliency, high abrasion resistance, high UV resistance, high flex strength and low cost. Low absorbency allows the fiber to dry quickly. PET has been replaced by stronger fibers for most serious racing applications, but remains the most popular sail cloth due to lower price and high durability. Dacron is the brand name of Dupont’s Type 52 high modulus fiber made specifically for sailcloth. Allied Signal has produced a fiber called 1W70 polyester that has a 27% higher tenacity than Dacron. Other trade names include Terylene, Tetoron, Trevira and Diolen.

It may not be on the roadside, but sails are a good heavy source of PET that should be recycled.

There are several reasons for the importance of Polyester:

The relatively easy accessible raw materials PTA or DMT and MEG
The very well understood and described simple chemical process of polyester synthesis
The low toxicity level of all raw materials and side products during polyester production and processing
The possibility to produce PET in a closed loop at low emissions to the environment
The outstanding mechanical and chemical properties of polyester
The recyclability
The wide variety of intermediate and final products made of polyester.

Table 1: World polyester production

Market size per year
Product type 2002 [Million tonnes/year] 2008 [Million tonnes/year]
Textile-PET 20 39
Resin, bottle/A-PET 9 16
Film-PET 1.2 1.5
Special polyester 1 2.5
Total 31.2 59

In 2008 39,000,000 tonnes produced, that is quite a lot
 
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solosails said:
Polyester (PET)
Polyethylene terephthalate, the most common type of polyester, is the most common fiber used in sailcloth; it is also commonly referred to by the brand name Dacron. PET has excellent resiliency, high abrasion resistance, ....
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Mea Culpa.
I am talking at cross purposes with a bloke who knows a bit about plastics.
I should have said the PET in bottles is not necessarily the same as the PET in sailcloth.

Recycling is a specialist subject in itself, it's also something that changes quite fast.
You might find it's worth tracking down a forum frequented by people who work with recycling or plastics manufacture.
 
lw395 said:
Mea Culpa.
I am talking at cross purposes with a bloke who knows a bit about plastics.
I should have said the PET in bottles is not necessarily the same as the PET in sailcloth.

Recycling is a specialist subject in itself, it's also something that changes quite fast.
You might find it's worth tracking down a forum frequented by people who work with recycling or plastics manufacture.
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Non erit sollicitum!

I don't know much about plastics at all, but I do know enough about the constituent parts of sails, we often use PEN fibres in sails which are a further modified version of Polyester, but as PET is such a commonly used and recycled material, it is a good place to start with the project.

I completely agree, I need to get the true constituents including resins and UV inhibitors etc from the manufacturers, and then approach a plastics expert to see what can be done with them having been exposed to many years and varying degrees of UV.

Thanks!
 
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