Recomendation for an electric windlass

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

Hi All,

After a week in Greece on a flotilla I have decided I'd rather like an electric windlass.

Any recommendations?

26' Westerly Griffon.

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Caer Urfa]

I have just surveyed a CW 31'-6" with a nice electric ' Quick Genius 1000' winch' foot controlled or look at a 'Lofrans Cayman Windless' but make sure you have a chain size to fit either

 

[Tranona]

Three main makers, Lewmar, Quick and Lofrans . In the size you will be looking at (7-800W) they are much of a muchness. You have to decide on whether you need a vertical or horizontal axis and that depends on where you can mount it and how you are going to lead the chain into the chain locker. Best thing is to go on their websites as they all have guidance on choosing a windlass plus templates for fitting to see where and what will work. Also worth asking on the WOA as I am sure you are not the first person to fit one to a Griffon.

Be aware that choosing the type of windlass is only part of the story - you also have to consider how you are going to power it and like the windlass itself there is more than one way of doing it.

 

[Neeves]

It is unusual but I must correct Tranona but we have a Maxwell windlass - and cannot fault it, nor the back up service. Maxwell is part of Vetus.

The advice of all windlass suppliers is 'do not use the windlass to pull the yacht toward the anchor'. I don't know which world the windlass makers live in but it is inevitable that you will at some stage use the windlass to pull the yacht forward (and the reality is - the windlass should be man enough to do the task (within reason). The reason for pointing this out - don't skimp on the motor. Either buy the motor recommended for your size of yacht or the next one up - don't go down size. Now is the perfect time to down size your chain, unless it has 3 years life left in it. But smaller chain, as well as being lighter, costs less and takes up less room (and does not tower in the locker so quickly). Lighter chain (and buying new) means you can consider more chain, more length. You might also be able to buy a smaller (cheaper) windlass but with a 'full' sized motor. Most modern windlass will accept mixed rodes - but rope does not self pack like chain does (or should). Most modern windlass will accept a range of motor sizes and chain sizes - so you can mix and match. A windlass designed for 8mm chain will usually accept different gypsies for either 6mm, 8mm or 10mm. My guess is you are using 8mm chain - but might benefit from considering 6mm.

If you sail single handed (or with novice crew) then you will find having a control for the windlass at the helm useful as well as foot switches. You could also have a remote for the windlass (I cannot comment - we don't have one).

As Tranona says you need to choose the windlass manufacturer, then decide on whether you want a vertical or horizontal windlass. You also need to think as to whether you want a capstan, which are useful but also a trip hazard. When you have decided vertical, horizontal and capstan you might then want to review again the windlass suppliers against the spec you have developed. Then you need to wonder how to power it and if you instal a separate battery - how to charge the battery.

Whilst mentioning batteries - if you are installing a windlass this suggests you are going to anchor frequently and possibly overnight. The bigger the house battery bank the more appliances you can use on board. A battery dedicated to the windlass does not increase you house bank and always seems a bit of a waste of a scarce resource and adds even more weight in the bow - so I'd favour a bigger house bank and always use the engine when you retrieve the anchor. But it depends on your house bank and charging system.

Choosing the windlass is almost the easy part - but as I suspect you have found out - worth their weight in, maybe not gold - but certainly game changers.

Installation of a windlass is not difficult - you should be able to do it yourself. If you are DIY you can explore here the powering options and implications - and you will enjoy plenty of sound advice. It would be worth exploring the power options - before you commit to the windlass - as then you have most of the background.

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

The advice of all windlass suppliers is 'do not use the windlass to pull the yacht toward the anchor'. I don't know which world the windlass makers live in but it is inevitable that you will at some stage use the windlass to pull the yacht forward (

I think the windlass suppliers very much live in the real world. Whilst it might be inevitable that coordination of motoring forward and winching the anchor chain in isn’t always perfect, windlasses are not designed to pull yachts towards their anchors. You should motor forward and use the windlass to retrieve the chain and anchor.

It’s the same in a ship, you’d never aim to pull the ship with the anchor windlass The bridge get reports on how the anchor is lying and whoever is driving motors forward to allow the ship’s windlass to retrieve the chain.
Our windlass will easily pull the 11+ tonnes of Serendipity forward, but I don’t do it because I don’t want to replace the windlass prematurely. It’s not a question of getting the right windlass, but a matter of not abusing a windlass that’s correctly sized. (I suggest that correct size means the windlass can comfortably retrieve the anchor and entire contents of chain locker if it ends up hanging vertically downwards in deep water.)
I cringe when I see yachts lifting their anchors without motoring forwards to ease the load on the windlass. It’s poor seamanship IMHO.

 

[roaringgirl]

In my experience, the advice about not pulling the boat forward using the windlass isn't to protect the *motor*, but to protect the gearbox and key&keyway that engages the shaft with the gipsy clutch.

Other variables you should consider are:
1. Is the motor protected from the elements? Our Lofrans tigres motor is still useable as a spare after damage to other parts made repair uneconomical.
2. Does the windlass have a manual option? It's a really useful feature you'll probably wish you had if you don't
3. I'd always choose a model with a rope drum as ours has got me out of a couple of tricky situations in the last couple of years.

I'd second the advice about beefing up the house bank rather than having a battery in the forepeak. It will also leave your charging system less-complicated. Make sure you budget for some beefy wiring to run from the house bank to the solenoid.

 

[NormanS]

Unless it's really windy, my wife, who deals with all anchoring our boat, will invariably use the windlass to pull the boat towards the anchor. She is not an idiot, and doesn't strain the windlass. As soon as she winds in some chain, the catenary reduces, and this starts to pull the boat ahead. It's a bit like fishing - you need to "play" the chain in.
Presumably those who insist that one MUST motor up to the anchor, never get under way under sail. Maybe they should consider their definition of seamanship.

 

[geem]

We have a big windlass for a heavy boat. Our technique for upping anchor when it's windy is that the helmnan puts the engine in forward until there is 1kt of SOG. At that point the engine goes into neutral. The boat has forward motion and the windlass pulling the chain in can easily maintain the boats forward motion without strain. You just need to overcome the initial inertia and get the hull moving.
If there is zero wind, the windlass easily pulls the boat forward. You just blip the windlass and let the chain catenary pull forward. A few blips on the windlass and the boat is soon moving forward steadily, again without strain

 

[roaringgirl]

Sail upwind until the chain is slack, turn head-to-wind and pull in the slack?

 

[ashtead]

I could not comment on wisdom of makes but we have a Quick. The thing which surprised me was the small pins which are used in the handset where it plugs in so corrodes the pins. When looking I would be checking out price of chain counters ,remote controls etc. I replaced our cable control cable but ideally a remote one would help so price up entire package not just the unit. If buying again I don’t think I would buy Quick but personal thoughts but maybe they are cheaper than say Lewmar or maxwell which is why factory fitted but builders? If you are at Soton boat show you might ask on the WOA stand in the tent for details of someone who has done this as said.

 

[Neeves]

(I suggest that correct size means the windlass can comfortably retrieve the anchor and entire contents of chain locker if it ends up hanging vertically downwards in deep water.)

Putting some numbers round this - 100m of 8mm chain will weight 145kg (in air) and the anchor add a further 15/20kg.

So the windlass is, apparently, designed to accept this tension. The tension in a 8mm rode at 20 knots at a 5:1 scope 30m deployed is about 80kg in air (all the chain will be, just, off the seabed).

There is a rule of rhumb that a healthy individual (I think it refers to a male) can lift their body weight.

If there is any chop and your anchor is well set then you may suffer snatch loads of 100s of kgs as you wait for the anchor to break out - hold vertically are initially similar to set tensions. So if you have power set your anchor using 30hp then the hold and vertical (immediate) hold will be about 300kg - and much more if the anchor has set more deeply due to wind.

Good seaman ship.....??

Jonathan

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

...windlasses are not designed to pull yachts towards their anchors.

I never quite understand this...

Inevitably, whilst hauling manually with a feeble couple of hundred watts in my arms I do drag the boat up to the anchor. So why would I need a kw to shift 30kgs of chain and anchor if it's not doing that?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Unless it's really windy, my wife, who deals with all anchoring our boat, will invariably use the windlass to pull the boat towards the anchor. She is not an idiot, and doesn't strain the windlass. As soon as she winds in some chain, the catenary reduces, and this starts to pull the boat ahead. It's a bit like fishing - you need to "play" the chain in.
Presumably those who insist that one MUST motor up to the anchor, never get under way under sail. Maybe they should consider their definition of seamanship.

Sailing the anchor out is another option. And yes, we sometimes do it.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Putting some numbers round this - 100m of 8mm chain will weight 145kg (in air) and the anchor add a further 15/20kg.

So the windlass is, apparently, designed to accept this tension. The tension in a 8mm rode at 20 knots at a 5:1 scope 30m deployed is about 80kg in air (all the chain will be, just, off the seabed).

There is a rule of rhumb that a healthy individual (I think it refers to a male) can lift their body weight.

If there is any chop and your anchor is well set then you may suffer snatch loads of 100s of kgs as you wait for the anchor to break out - hold vertically are initially similar to set tensions. So if you have power set your anchor using 30hp then the hold and vertical (immediate) hold will be about 300kg - and much more if the anchor has set more deeply due to wind.

Good seaman ship.....??

Jonathan

All the above might be true, but the windlass manufacturers are pointing out that their products are not designed to accept this abuse. You can get away with it, but you’re reducing the life of the gears and motor unnecessarily. Hence poor seamanship.

 

[roaringgirl]

It was a real education for me when our electric windlass failed and I spent a couple of months living aboard using an X23 fortress with 10m of chain and 80m of rode instead of our usual 25kg Rocna with all-chain. I switched to the Fortress so I could retrieve it by hand more easily. Amongst other things it taught me that:
1) the snatch loads when trying to pull up an anchor are scary when your fingers are involved
2) motoring/sailing forwards is essential when you don't have a windlass
3) you break the fortress free by pulling in as much rode as you can and then cleating it off and just waiting - take in more whenever you can and cleat it off again.
What surprised me was how long you have to wait doing nothing while it works its way out - it made me think about how I must be always "rushing" it out when I use the windlass.

I am now much more sympathetic with the windlass, using a dyneema strop and chain hook to secure the chain to a cleat while the anchor works its way out, where I would have just hauled on the windlass impatiently to get it out before.

 

[roaringgirl]

I never quite understand this...

Inevitably, whilst hauling manually with a feeble couple of hundred watts in my arms I do drag the boat up to the anchor. So why would I need a kw to shift 30kgs of chain and anchor if it's not doing that?

It always takes the same amount of energy to lift the same mass from the same depth.
Power (W) is energy/time. The windlass will do it significantly faster than your arms, because it's more powerful.

 

[Tranona]

It is unusual but I must correct Tranona but we have a Maxwell windlass - and cannot fault it, nor the back up service. Maxwell is part of Vetus.


Jonathan

The OP has a modest 26' boat so requires a 5-700w windlass. I did not suggest Maxwell for 2 reasons. First they are not widely available in the UK compared with the other 3 and second because their entry model (at 500w) is more than 50% more expensive than the 700w equivalents from Lewmar or Lofrans. Nothing wrong of course with the Maxwell, but the other 2 (and Quick) dominate the market here because they offer the best value.

 

[KREW2]

Hi All,

After a week in Greece on a flotilla I have decided I'd rather like an electric windlass.

Any recommendations?

26' Westerly Griffon.

Thanks

Andrew

Do you have a manual windlass at the moment, or is it all done by hand?
If not then you will need to budget for about 25 meters of new calibrated chain, as well as the wiring, which can be costly, as well as awkward to run.
When I installed mine someone suggested I use welding cable as it is more flexible and easier to run. I did however just go with ordinary untinned cable and had the ends heat sealed.
Basically the final cost was about double the cost of the windlass.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

It always takes the same amount of energy to lift the same mass from the same depth.
Power (W) is energy/time. The windlass will do it significantly faster than your arms, because it's more powerful.

Well exactly, there's a significant price saving in a lower power windlass. I'll be looking at 300 quid in cable alone for a kw windlass. A slower more highly geared lower power one could save a lot of money.

 

[NormanS]

Do you have a manual windlass at the moment, or is it all done by hand?
If not then you will need to budget for about 25 meters of new calibrated chain, as well as the wiring, which can be costly, as well as awkward to run.
When I installed mine someone suggested I use welding cable as it is more flexible and easier to run. I did however just go with ordinary untinned cable and had the ends heat sealed.
Basically the final cost was about double the cost of the windlass.

As chain is now all machine made, is there such a thing as uncalibrated chain?