Re-wiring 12Volt

[Chris_Jam]

I intend to give my boat a nice new logical wiring system this winter using automotive bus bar type fusebox feeding a switch panel for step down and localised fuse arrangements. I only feed a lighting system and Nav.instruments and will keep the eng. starter requirements separate. However I would like to provide some cig.lighter outlets around the boat as well for the occaisional bit of equipment or charger. I intend to use the better quality 'tinned' wire and crimped connectors.

Does this sound alright or should I be spending a lot more money on the specialised marine circuit breaker type of installation? - which I believe is now the industry standard.

CJ

- I didn't get where I am today by not asking questions when I needed to know something.

 

[jfkal]

Sounds fine with me. Even most of the marine stuff corrodes when to moist. I use standard industrial cartridge type fuses from ABB. Works well for the high load fuses. Found that the nice and expensive distribution panels do not work since they are PCB based and therefor grossly underdimensioned for the typical currents we use. The cheap wire based Taiwanese panels work much better.

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Chris,

The only area of concern is that a visitor may plug an item into one of your lighter outlets and blow half the fuses off the bulkhead if your cable or fuses are under sized for the item.

The circuit breakers are a bit pricey, but poking around in the dark looking for a torch, then a fuse the right size and type can have it's own problems.

But then that's boating, any boat is nothing if not a collection of compromises.

heavy = slow but comfortable if a but thirsty on fuel
light = faster, but may not be as strong, or lacking some comforts
And the list goes on, (Why do I get the feeling I'm about to get flamed)???



Avagoogweekend..........Old Salt Oz.........../forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[pvb]

Alternative for cig lighter sockets...

I've found that most cigar lighter sockets give a fairly poor connection, which can lead to overheating. A better alternative is the DIN-type plugs and sockets, which have a positive brass spring-clip connection, rather than relying on friction to keep the plug in. You can get them from many chandlers, or see the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.indexmarine.co.uk>Index Marine</A> site and look for D-7447 plug and D-7445 socket.

When you're doing the wiring, remember to add a high-amp fuse next to the battery to protect your system.

 

[claymore]

Chris
if you are going to all that trouble you may as well do it properly. Cicuit breakers are not that expensive and you can easily make up a panel then mount them. Your word logical should be the force that drives this - so think it through before you start and stay away from cigar lighters for the reasons mentioned below. If you have 2 batteries then sort out the isolator and have your domestic stuff all off the domestic battery with your engine battery separate from it. Think too about systems you may wish to be live all the time, such as a bilge pump. It is a big job and there will be 3 main benefits
1 - you'll have confidence knowing its done
2 - you'll know the system
3 - its not going to give you any problems at all - your house system probably doesn't have daft switches that depend on other switches, so why should your boat?
There are some really good books on the market - there's one by Fernhurst and the other is the 12volt bible - don't know who wrote it (its on the boat)

regards
Claymore

 

[JEG]

Think you may be referring to 'The marine electrical & electronics bible' by John C Payne - an excellent item.

 

[byron]

Re: Alternative for cig lighter sockets...

I know nuffink so this is more by way of a question. In some cigar lighter plugs that come with a goody there's a little circuit board, should this too be added into the fixture ?

http://www.alexander-advertising.co.uk

 

[oldharry]

For good quality low priced circuit breakers, go to Maplins elctronics - the same as, and a fraction of the cost of the expensive ones sold by chandlers. Fuse connectors seem to be particularly prone to damp corrosion, and I have often found a problem circuit resulted from a bad fuse connection - particularly the white ones mounted between two sprung terminals, and frequently sold by chandlers for 'marine use'.

Dont waste your money on those.....

 

[yachtbits]

what would i fit?

as i do this sort of thing for a living, can i comment without being accussed of advertising?

tinned wire - definately
crimp on lugs etc - definately, never solder power cables
circuit breakers rather than fuses - definately
build your own panel - hmmm, not convinced benefits outway the hassle.
seperate supply for bilge pump - definately
sort out battery isolation switches before starting on the rest.
don't forget main fuse/circuit breaker between battery isolator and switch/circuit breaker panel.

now the ad, most bits available from us inc individual circuit breakers at similar prices to maplin. also free advice to customers if required.

kev


<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtbits.co.uk>http://www.yachtbits.co.uk</A>
sales@yachtbits.co.uk
marine electrics & electronics

 

[Guest]

Re: what would i fit?

Why not solder?

Ray

Ray

 

[ccscott49]

Re: what would i fit?

Solder has a habit of corroding the ends of the wires and setting up a "Hard spot" in the wire where its soldered to the connection, they break, quite often, especially where vibration is present. This argument has been aired on these forae many times, crimping is the best and most efficient way to go, the accepted industry standard. BUT use profesional ratchet crimping pliers, not the cheap ones you buy with a box of terminals, they are cheap and nasty. the profesional ones are not expensive anyway.

 

[Plum]

Re: to solder or to crimp

I know that is the theory, but, In my 20 years experience I have never had a problem with a soldered connection, but I have had several problems with crimped connections where oxidisation/corrosion has caused high resistance in the crimp connection.

 

[ean_p]

Re: to solder or to crimp

yep me too......take on board the point about a hard spot in area where solder ends but never had problem electricly, as have done many many time with crimped connection especialy when used in heavy brine laden environments.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: to solder or to crimp

There is no argument here, we use ONLY crimped connections offshore on oil rigs and surveyt boats etc. etc. and I couldn't think of a more salt laden enviroment than this! It is the only approved method. With proper plated end connections and tinned wire, there should be no problem with corrosion. If you allow your wiring to get soaking wet, then you need to use some glue filled heat shrink sleeving over the ends, after crimping and silcone grease over the actual connection. Not IMHO.

 

[Rowana]

Re: to solder or to crimp

We've been down this road loads of times before. . . .

I totally agree with Colin. I also work in the offshore oil/gas environment and everything is crimped - right up to 11,000 volts.

As colin says, the important thing is to use tinned wire, and the CORRECT crimping tool - not one of these cheap & nasty things that you get with a kit. Also spray with silicone grease once you've done the job. NOT VASELINE, please - It goes all 'orrible after a while.

Jim

 

[seaesta]

Re: what would i fit?

Nothing to do with the question but tip may be useful to you and other budding 'tricians

I rewired part of my boat 15 years ago and a few years later the copper wires had corroded to black oxide and the job needed doing again. Second time round I bought a pot of vaseline and poked every wire and terminal into this before and after crimping and after soldering. The later job has been in place for 10 years and when I cut into a couple of cables last summer the wire was sound.

Motto - get lots of vaseline in before the moisture can get in an bugger up your wires

Martin of Seaesta of Whitby

 

[castaway]

Re: what would i fit?

Now that sounds like a good tip, as Ive had this oxidising prob too.

Does it get the blessing of the Electrcal experts?

I had been dipping all my wire ends into a spoon containing molten solder which appears to work quite well. The solder runs a short way up the cable and appears to make a good end, but in view of the earlier posts maybe I won't do that any more.

Nick

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather>http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather</A>

 

[Paulka]

Re: to solder or to crimp

Agreed!
Same in the power plants, both, conventionnal and nuclear. No soldered connections, except on the printed circuit boards. As far as I know, the crimped connections were a request to get the late A1 certification from Lloyds as well.

I just part-rewired my boat, and used tinned wires, crimped connections, circuit breakers.

I hate tapping in the dark, to look for a bl...y new fuse, and then discovering it was not the fuse, but the bulb!
Of course, the whole drama in a heavily pitching boat, with cold and wet fingers, etc.... One really must be crazy to go sailing!!!
A cb shows you it's off, and you just can try to switch it on again. If it "breaks" again, you know there is a real fault somewhere down the road. With fuses, you'll blow a whole box untill you've sorted the mess out.

Another important "detail" : try to build some selectivity into your system, that means, have the higher rated cb's nearest to the battery, or don't have two cb's with the same rating in serie.
E.g. protect your distribution panel with a 60 A. cb, then each cabin with a 25 A cb, finally, each group of lamps in each cabin with a 6 A cb, and each group of sockets in each cabin with a 10 A. cb.

Good luck!

 

[ean_p]

Re: to solder or to crimp

Hola Colin
yeah i've followed the threads in the past and the concensus seems to be the crimped route but to reiterate up until 2 years ago i spent the previous 9 years maintaining and servicing 24v and 48v dc equipment in what is reputedly the largest pork/bacon slaughter and processing plant in europe( yeah must have been a real bad sod in the last life!). This equipment literally had curing brine swilling all over and all around it. Never had a soldered terminal fail by way poor conection.....had many many crimped ones fail due to corrosion/salt accretion between the fitting and conductor in region of the crimp....the fittings were top quality tinned copper as the equipment was of german manu' and to be fair the crimp failures were relatively few compared to the failure caused by corrosion/accretion between the fitting and the male teminals on the whatever they were attached too...this i tended to put down to the external lugs of equipment been of a lesser quality then the tinned copper...but what ever...I share my boat with my brother and he's in your game and has been for more then 20 years...he's just rewired our's and when it came to making up the leads for strapping 9 x 108ah batterys together he crimped every one......so i said to him ...can't think of an industrial battery manufacturer who crimps cable terminations at the battery end...they're all sweated, though one or two do crimp the plug pins of the output/charging leads.... no doubt you you know the answer he gave me......we've got crimped leads....his job ,he did it his way.....

p.s. what are the rates in Barca like...long term per mtr per year (or per part year) ??
Ian P.

 

[Rowana]

Re: what would i fit?

Silicone spray is the way to go now. Vaseline used to be the way in the past, but it does go "off" after a while, so get a small can of spray-on silicone stuff, which is much better.

Jim