Re-filling the gas
- Thread starter Sneaky Pete
- Start date
Stemar
Well-known member
Going back to gas bottle failure modes, ISTM that fatigue, as described by Lustyd is unlikely. They're made to withstand far higher pressures than they'll ever experience unless in a fire, and to do that after being clattered around by careless delivery drivers and users. That wouldn't bother me. What is far more likely to fail is the valve, which may starting to leak a bit. I haven't used Camping Gaz for many years, but what I would be concerned about with their cylinders is the ball valve. Many years ago - maybe 60, I was with my parents and an uncle and aunt, camping in Spain, where factory exchange bottles weren't available, so my uncle got a locally refilled bottle. It had a sticky valve, and the ball in the valve had to have a prod before connecting it to the cooker. This wasn't a problem until the 3rd or 4th time, when the ball shot out and the cylinder emptied itself. I'd be very leery of having a CG bottle in stock for several years, far more so than a Calor (spit) or similar.
chrishscorp
Well-known member
From the recent conversation I had with an independent gas supplier who was able to supply me a 907 he was saying that in some 18 months time we are going to see tightening of availability on 907s over here again, he didnt elaborate why and I should have pushed for more info. With the increased uptake in people using 907s as they are the only bottles that can be made to fit in gas lockers with the 4.5s and 3.7s taken out of supply this could be a real headache.
lustyd
Well-known member
They aren’t at all. It’s been widely discussed here that FloGas supply cylinders which fit. They have supply constraint right now because Calor screwed everyone over (twice, once by removing small cylinders and once by raising the cost of Campingaz, which they fill in the UK). They have committed to increase supply though so you absolutely have a choice outside of Calor or Calor filled Campingaz.
chrishscorp
Well-known member
Yes, Flo gas are trying to increase their availability by ordering new bottles WOA has had a lengthy conversation with them there is however a serious time lag in the supply on new bottles for filling, there are several different dimensioned bottles in the mentioned sizes so a replacement bottle though it looks the same may not fit depending on how tight the space is in your gas locker.
The situation could be resolved so easily of course by Calor offering to Flo gas their stocks of empty 3.7 and 4.5 bottles.......
lustyd
Well-known member
Yes, there is a time lag, but I was just correcting your statement that Campingaz are the only bottles that will fit. We can all see the situation with Campingaz getting bad already so I'd say there may be a delay either way depending when you switch. Personally I want nothing more to do with Calor so wouldn't go near Campingaz in the UK even if they hadn't decided to price gouge in a situation of their own making.
Boathook
Well-known member
I would like the competition and market authority bods force calor to give flogas all their 4.5 and 3.9kg cylinders. Calor to my mind don't deserve customers but at present they are still a very big supplier in the bottled gas market.
B27
Well-known member
I'm not sure more people are using 907s, because outside the small world of yachting, people are using disposable butane cans which are cheaper pre kg of gas.
Aja
Well-known member
Flogas does not fit in my Moody 346.
boomerangben
Well-known member
If the CMA were to force Calor to resume supply of the smaller cylinders, what prevents Calor from extorting customers with essentially a monopoly? Surely what is needed is for Flogas and Shell gas (if they still exist) and other suppliers to all use cylinders that fit in existing boats/vans etc
chrishscorp
Well-known member
Calor are already operating a monopoly due to their market share
ProDave
Well-known member
Thankfully they appear to be alienating customers fast enough to ensure their market share diminishes. Hopefully very rapidly.
B27
Well-known member
How much is an exchange camping gaz in France these days?
lustyd
Well-known member
less than an empty cylinder at Halfords in the UK (which is £32...empty)
boomerangben
Well-known member
Maybe, but the monopoly here is down to the fact that many boat owners are restricted to one supplier due to space. If the CMA were to force Calor to resume supplying small cylinders, they will simply price a cylinder at whatever they need to cover cost of filling and distribution. And herein lies the problem, small cylinders are very inefficient when it comes to distribution and filling. Whoever supplies them will need to cover the cost of manufacture, maintenance, handling filling and distribution. Economies of scale are at play in each and every step - the expensive bits of a cylinder are the dome ends and the valve, the bit of steel between the two ends is cheap, inspection and handling is much the same regardless of cylinder size and as for distribution, most of the cost of transportation is carrying steel around the place. Surely what is needed here is a range of suppliers all providing cylinders that fit, competing to keep prices reasonable. But since the small cylinder market is probably tiny in the whole scheme of things, other suppliers aren’t that interested………. Which leaves the same problem, a single supplier who is forced to provide a product it doesn’t want to sell, so will do so at an exorbitant price. Boat builders will start to look at diesel or electric stoves, more and more owners will retrofit diesel, spirit or electric stoves, fill their gas lockers with lithium and plug in more often…….the market diminishes further and so on.
As many have said on here, gas is a relatively small outlay in their sailing budgets so maybe a steep increase in price will be accepted, but it seems many won’t. And I don’t blame them.
I get why WOA are campaigning for action to restore supplies, but is the reality of all this that over the next few years the fuel used for cooking is going to have to change both for new builds and existing boats?
As many have said on here, gas is a relatively small outlay in their sailing budgets so maybe a steep increase in price will be accepted, but it seems many won’t. And I don’t blame them.
I get why WOA are campaigning for action to restore supplies, but is the reality of all this that over the next few years the fuel used for cooking is going to have to change both for new builds and existing boats?
yoda
Well-known member
30 euro when I looked this year
penfold
Well-known member
CMA probably can't do that, maybe voiding Calor's ownership of the cylinders given that's one of the major bottlenecks and allowing any competent 3rd party to fill them might be feasible.
B27
Well-known member
Calor don't own the Camping Gaz cylinders.
What prevents a competent commercial 3rd party refilling Camping Gaz cylinders?
I wonder if the answer to thing might be that it's not actually money for old rope?
Boathook
Well-known member
I suspect that calor have the licence from camping gas to refill cylinders, etc in the UK. I think that the refilling is relatively easy but it is the safety checks that would take the time plus record keeping.
B27
Well-known member
Whenever I've exchanged a gaz cylinder, I've swapped a used-looking rusty one for a newly painted one.
I think you are right, the price includes some checks, refurbishment, probably writing off some older cylinders?
It's not like in (I suspect) Morocco, just filling it with gas for a couple of quid.
If some other party was to refill camping gaz cylinders, they'd either have to leave them rusty or paint them their own colour as they wouldn't be able to use the gaz copyright stuff. So then official gaz retailers wouldn't take them.