Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What's your View?

[silver-fox]

Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

I really could do with some advice from liveaboards that have sailed the Med and the Trades. We intend to liveaboard and spend a couple of years cruising first in the Med and then a few more years in the Caribbean and perhaps further afield. (OK, I will be completely honest with you; a leisurely circumnavigation is the secret plan - but we just don't want the pressure of everyone knowing!)

My problem is whilst I have plenty of sailing experience, it has not been in the Med or in the Tropics so I am finding it difficult to choose between the final two boats on my shortlist.

I was in a brokerage yesterday and almost made an offer for a boat but I decided to walk away and think about it. The problem wasn’t the money or the decision - it was, I discovered, my lack of first hand knowledge.

SWMBO and I had pretty much decided that a Moody 425 was the blue water boat for us when we spotted a Moody Eclipse 38 for sale. Both meet our requirements as far as we can tell. My wife is very attracted to the Eclipse because of the raised saloon, general airiness and of course the protected steering position.

My nervousness is over the seaworthiness of the Eclipse in heavy weather with its big windows and large, flat, aft-facing wheelhouse profile. Also it’s a couple of tons lighter than a 425 (8 tons displacement rather than 10 tons), which might make it a bit livelier in a seaway. I also have concerns that a Deck Saloon would be very stuffy in the summer and we would spend most of our time in the cockpit anyway …rendering the saloon and its windows pretty redundant.

On the other hand SWMBO and myself are in our mid-50s and the old adage about “the weakest part of a boat is the crew” undoubtedly applies to us. So it could be argued that a sheltered steering position would improve our resilience when the weather is poor.

Furthermore, I have heard it can get pretty chilly in the Med in winter and the thought of lying at Anchor, idly watching the world go by, heater on, whilst the rain lashes against those large windows has its attractions… The prospect of beating to the windward and staying dry or a night watch in the warm has its appeal too.

BUT if these creature comforts are illusory or come at the expense of safety then we both agree we shall go for the more traditional centre cockpit design.

So if you have experience you can share with me I would love to hear from you. If you are an engineer, or someone who understands the strength or otherwise of a raised deck saloon design, then please do let me know your thoughts.

 

[michael_w]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

Personally, I don't think the centre cockpit concept really works unless the boat is at least 50' long. Where do you spend most of the time below? The saloon; invariably this will be much smaller than the aft cockpit equivalent.

In warmer climes the aft cabin gets rather stuffy and hot, quite a few cruisers I've met prefer to sleep in the fo'c'sle and relegate the aft cabin to children, guests and storage, aka "the cupboard under the stairs". A lot of centre cockpit boats are short on deck gear stowage to boot.

Of necessity the cockpit is set rather high on the boat (wedding cake factor) It is a long way to fall when the boat is heeling.

As far as deck saloons go SWMBO and I think they look awful. Do you really want to own a sailing boat that looks as if it has been mated with a garden shed/caravan?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Skyva_2]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

The 425 seems very popular with Moody Owners in the Med. Not sure about the sailing qualities af the Eclipse range. The ballast ratios for both boats are about 38%.

Why not try a post on the Moody Owners board for more direct experience:

www.moodyowners.org.uk

(Information and For Sale boards). You have to register but do not have to be a member.

 

[Grehan]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

Go for a boat with a reasonable pedigree coupled with exactly the kind of accomodation that suits you. You talk about a " . . leisurely . . " voyage. Do you intend to push on and battle the elements, making progress etc etc. Or does leisurely mean enjoying yourselves, putting comfort and safety above relentless passage-making. Waiting for weeks until you get the 'right' conditions - you have the 'time' now . . . You will spend more time down below in the saloon than you might imagine - you might feel your cockpit is a bit public some of the time (moored stern-to in Med marinas, for example) and you'll certainly need shade from the sun. Down below, with proper ventilation (i.e a nice big cheap desk fan), you can (for example) use your computer (outside, glare is too bright for comfort). Personally, I disagree with the comment about aft cabins - we find ours is just right. We use our forward cabin which is much smaller, as the 'glory hole'. Remember you're buying your boat to live on, together, full time. Getting used to constantly being in one another's way is part of the fun, but the more (sensibly) spacious and well laid-out everything is, the better.

I'm not denying in any shape or form, the need for safe sailing performance and proper seaworthy design - especially not seaworthiness lost to 'fluffy cushions' - and of course weight usually correlates with 'sea-comfort' and therefore safety. We find our quasi-doghouse Southerly very good indeed, and she weighs in at 11 tons, so pretty stable too. She is also a centre cockit design which we think is actually better than an aft one, but that's just our prejudice. Some centre cockpit boats seem awkward and far too 'high up', but we don't think ours is, nor the Moody you're talking about. (not that I know f-all about Moodys!). You might also be interested to hear that we have never, in anger, used our inside steering position (we have, to test it and try it out). Outside, in the elements, one has so much better visibility and direct control.

We do have white curtains behind our windscreen and side screen glass to try and keep the solar radiation down during the heat of the day, but it is lovely to have all that light flooding the galley and the saloon. BTW don't neglect the design of the galley. What is acceptable for a long weekend in the Solent, or two weeks cruising down to Dartmouth, may not be when used full-time.

For other inexpert ramblings, see our website www.grehan.ukhq.co.uk although much of this is about our French waterways adventures. Bon Voyage for your Great Escape!

 

[TigaWave]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

Once in warmer climates, being outside in a spacious cockpit is preferable, and having a large cockpit that can seat 12 (with wheel removed) was great for entertaining. There's much more sitting eating drinking than beating in the rain.

What are important are the accessories that make this outdoor life comfortable, a really decent huge cockpit tent/canopy that can have sun screens dropped on the sides and back,and a really solid table to eat off, again big enough for as many as you can fit in. Our canopy went from the mast to the backstay and kept the heat off the coach roof.

 

[Plan_B]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

Hi Stevie,

We have been planning the "great escape" for some time now and have owned a conventional cruiser and an Eclipse (and it is everything good you suggest it is). We loved the boat and it gave us years of pleasure, but, we had similar concerns over the design weaknesses of the latter in serious weather and big seas. We spend a considerable amount of time on our boats and would not want anything other than the deck saloon which allows both skipper and crew to enjoy all round vision from the comfort of a raised cabin in port and at sea. We wanted the same basic design, but a much tougher build to give us peace of mind if we got caught out. We therefore looked at other deck saloons, and there are lots about these days - new and old. Look at Oysters, Nauticats, Seastreams, Northshore (Vancovers, Southerlys). These regularly cross oceans and theres lots about. - Trouble is, its sods law that the boat you decide on will not come up for sale when you want it - Eclipse 38s are like that. You go 2 years without seeing one and then 3 come up!

I'm sure other Forumites will come up with other suggestions.

Good luck - I'm sure you will make the right decision.


DD

 

[Grehan]

Naughty cats?

Just to show how little I know/don't know about other boats . . .
Isn't the Nauticat a 'deck saloon'? - from what I've seen, great build quality, lovely boats, look very safe, great reputation, very popular - there are two of them opposite us in Gib right now, etc etc
. . . but (controversial note) I've also heard they roll (er, like pigs).
Is this true?

PS I wouldn't class the Southerly as a deck saloon. You can't walk from the cockpit, inside. You go down five steps, then you're at the galley/nav station (looking out through the windscreen), then down two more and you're in the saloon (under the windscreen).

----------------------
Plan to have no plan whatsoever!

 

[silver-fox]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

[ Or does leisurely mean enjoying yourselves, putting comfort and safety above relentless passage-making. Waiting for weeks until you get the 'right' conditions - you have the 'time' now . . .

Definitely the above!

BTW if I was to add to the confusion I would put a Southerly 115 on the list. Do you use the lifting keel much?

 

[Grehan]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

In the Med, not really (unless following wind in which case, keel up and reduce drag dinghy-fashion). Because of her massive (heavy) cast iron grounding plate, she's nearly as stable keel-up as keel down. Mind you, she makes quite a lot of leeway . . .

Otherwise, all the time!
[I've sent you a PM, too]

 

[Gerry]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

The Caribbean is HOT HOT HOT with high humidity a lot of the time. It is a real issue keeping cool enough, currently 90 degrees here with 70% humidity(Panama). Out at anchor there is generally a cooling breeze, then of course you want to be out in a decent sized cockpit. If in a marina the deck saloons become complete greenhouses, all the ones down here have the glass covered with reflectors etc, not much view thru them ! We have a conventional aft cockpit, no deck saloon and it works for us. That is in these climates, don't think I will be so happy when we get to Chile though..........
We prefer the conventional cockpit where you feel closer to the ocean when sailing, But really good bimini and sparyhood and dodgers are vital for comfort . Good luck!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

We went for deck saloon (Nauticat 42) for the reasons you give. It really does make sailing short-handed and in all weathers much easier and when you are not at sea (98% of the time) it is nice to be able to look out of the windows. However, as Gerry and others have said, in hot climates the insides of boats can become intolerable. We have awnings that we stretch over our boom (home made simply canvas sheets with bungies on the ends) and home-made canvass screens to the forward facing windows, held in place with POPs.

When at anchor in the Med it works well and we very seldom stay in marinas when it is hot - when we do, we have aircon but we don't like to run the genny for long enough to make using it at anchor worthwhile.

In the winter in the Med it is lovely to have the view rather than be stuck inside a cabin.

As for cooler climes, we did several winter crossings of the Channel in November to February, overnight, and it was a delight to be able to con from below. We have full visibility and control below (other than the sails) so I simply set wind vane mode and relax in the warm.

 

[heerenleed]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

Heerenleed has a wheel shelter, not a real wheelhouse, which we would not do without anymore. Plenty of shade when it's hot, never getting wet when it rains or in adverse weather, but still the wind in your face when you want it. It is a centre cockpit, but not sky high like in the high volume modern cruisers, so the feel is rather safe. It works well for us, have no Med experience, but after this year's cruise in june/july don't think I need any. Have a look at the picture here. Heerenleed is a Nicholson 48. The same arrangement was used on the Nic 38 and both the 42 and 44.
But as others said: choose whatever feels right for you.
fair winds,

 

[DaveNTL]

Re: Naughty cats?

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the Nauticat a 'deck saloon'?.... I've also heard they roll (er, like pigs).
Is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some are pilot house (39's, 42's, 515's) like Lemains, and some are 'traditional motor sailors' (33, 38, 44) like mine.

I think mine will / might roll like a porker, but I've done a lot of miles in it since I bought it last year and it hasn't been a factor yet. Maybe I just haven't found the worst conditions for it. Yet.

Mine has a raised 'poop deck' so you're higher, much like a centre cockpit, but further aft, so you'd think the rolling effect would be worse.

 

[roly_voya]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

A word about centre cockpit - enclosed or with lid. In a traditional boat this is built small and deep and you cant walk under it (normally thats where the engin lives) Accesess to the rea cabin is via a door or hatch. This is very seaworthy as it is protected from following seas, doesn't hold much water even if it does fill and allows the crew to be down in the midle of the boat out of the ellements and where movement is minimised. Modern centre cockpits are frequently not much mor than a fence araound a flush deck with full headroom so the crew is sat out in the weather like a pea on a drum. Ok you can enclose it but any cabin sat on top of the deck is just inviting the sea to try and tear it off.

So the question is "where are you going to sail?" I would not be comforable crossing an ocean in a boat designed with more though to habour comfort than seaworthyness. On the other hand how many people actually ever spend more that a day or two at sea even if cruising full time around places like the med.

No such thing (within reson) as a bad boat just the wrong one for you

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

I would never go back to living 'down a hole' after a deck saloon. I now find sitting below looking at a strip of sky through a slot in the roof is claustrophobic.

In the Caribbean we spent a lot of time in the saloon, simply because it's more comfortable than the cockpit seats. The trick to making it livable in the tropics was fitting opening portlights in the middle of the forward windows. They are weathertight but when opened they flush hot air out in seconds.

p.s. it does help that our deck saloon is 17 ft wide!

 

[ChrisE]

A compromise?

Just an additional point to consider. We have an aft cockpit which is good at sea but no so clever in harbour and as others have noticed 'downstairs' is no fun in hot weather, no views and v. sticky.

We now have a deep spray hood and a cockpit tent which gives us the best of both worlds. The sprayhood keeps the weather off at sea and the tent gives us a 'conservatory' when in harbour. It provides an enclosed area that has been warm enough to be used during the winter comfortably, in warmer weather the sides rollup to get a good breeze through.

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

I think a Moody Eclipse 38 is an excellent choice and boat. I made my circumnavigation in a centre cockpit Moody 36 and it was perfect. I have a friend here in La Rochelle with a Moody Eclipse and it is a very good looking boat as well.

As snow leopard says - you do need to find a way of opening the forward facing windows in the deck saloon or it will be untenable in the tropics with the heat. The big windows are only going to be a problem in really really bad weather when waves hit the boat like a sledge hammer. You may never see that - ever but I guess some plywood covers to drop in over them might make you feel better if the unlikely did happen!

Michael

 

[silver-fox]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

[The big windows are only going to be a problem in really really bad weather when waves hit the boat like a sledge hammer. You may never see that - ever but I guess some plywood covers to drop in over them might make you feel better if the unlikely did happen!

Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

And there Michael you have the nub of my dilemma. I really like everything about the Eclipse 38 except the concern about the fragility or otherwise of the raised saloon an its windows.

My shortlist is down to two boats now; the Moody Eclpise 38 and the Moody 425 and I keep flip-flopping between them. I would go for the raised deck saloon like a shot - if I could be sure it was safe for the circumnavigation I have in mind.

Part of me looks at the windows and the high vertical aft profile to the saloon and can just visualise a nasty sea stoving in the windows or even the saloon itself. The other part of me argues that whilst a flush decked cruiser would have a much better chance in such circumstances, how would the exposed crew fare, held in place only by safety harnesses?

BTW I have your all your circumnavigation DVDs and have reached the Barrier reef with you so far! I would be very interested to know which boat you would choose and why - of the two I have shortlisted?

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

Steve hi,

Trouble is I am not sure which boat.... Both are great.

I would certainly want to be able to put 1" ish boards into the windows for when it got nasty. I have seen stainless slides beside such windows on other boats - like you have for wash boards. The other thing that would worry me long term is that the double bed in the Moody eclipse is in the bows. That place will be untenable when things are bouncy.

The Moody 425 has a cracking double bed that you can access from both sides which I often wished I had as climbed over a sleeping shape to go to the loo or to check the anchor! The bedroom is aft so that whatever the conditions (almost) it will be possible to sleep in there.

Bambola had a centre cockpit and it was the first cc boat I had owned. I was doubtful about being so high up and in the middle.... In the end I totally forgot about the height and found when 'parking' that I was a lot closer to the middle of the boat so less distance to the quay and less distance to the mast. I would recommend centre cockpits to anyone for long distance cruising - good Bimini - mine was fixed but the cockpit was, and in most boats in the tropics is, the social centre of a cruising boat.. Who wants to go inside when it's so hot? Lots of warm evenings in the cockpit with the BBQ cooking fish over the stern...

Just writing I would go for the CC boat if you are really going for the Med, Caribbean or tropics. If you are sailing colder UK and other waters go for the Eclipse...

All just opinion and there are no rules - both good boats..

glad you are enjoying the DVD's -- Lady Musgrave in engraved into my memory!!!

and I can't wait to get back to the Pacific.... one day soon I hope

fair winds

Michael

 

[syfuga]

Re: Raised Deck Saloon V Tradional Open Cockpit - What\'s your View?

Look at the Dehler 41DS. It has a great saloon that you can see out of when sitting down. (Try that on an Oyster!). We have a good sized cockpit, and spend most of our time eating and drinking there. Shes a dry boat, but lacks a bit on heavy weather sailing, although we felt safe-ish in a 9 in Biscay.

Look at www.syfuga.co.uk and in particular www.syfuga.co.uk/fuga.htm