Raggie rage. Was I in the wrong?

[DAKA]

Do you still have one of these then?

Or have you upgraded and got an audio link to the men in the engine room?

I wish it was that easy.
I have to put the auto helm on.
go downstairs, find the patio doors locked, go back upstairs to ask swmbo for her spare set of keys, have an argument about whos fault it is that the keys are locked inside the boat, get the laptop off my daughter to post
'best way to break into a flybridge'

break in, start engine and go back upstairs, press standby on the auto helm and either stick it into reverse if there is still time or just peel the raggie off the danforth (I prefer the Danforth, I just love getting raggies in the cross hairs from 1/2 mile off



not meant entirely as a serious post but raggies shouldnt expect every stinker has ability to miss them as they tack into us.
I can not start my engine from the flybridge.

 

[DAKA]

If you have shaft drives and don't have a propshaft lock to stop the lazy shaft from spinning you could be damaging your gearbox? As I understand it most larger marine gearboxes do not like being trailed as there is no water or oil circulating? Might be wrong but that was what I have been told when looking at trawler yachts in the USA.

Thankyou for your concern, it is a valid thread drift. Mine are ZF 63 Hydraulic gear boxes, as soon as the engine is cut the drive is disengaged, the manufacturers confirm that they can be run free with out risk of damage, although there is a theoretical argument that there would be a fuel saving if locked.

 

[fireball]

If you are that restricted ... shouldn't you be flying the appropriate dayshapes?!

Serious question though - assuming you're trudging through the harbour at 6 knots - how much time/room do you need to fulfill your obligations to keep clear?

 

[Questor]

By the way, the boat is Kibou III.

Aha, so it was you that we passed coming back in to the harbour. Belated "Hello"

I think we've had an encounter with the same raggie as you, a little while back. Well at least he gave us the same line - word for word in fact.

Ever since, I've been looking for one of those toy hand grenades. Just love to see the look on his face next time when I pull the pin out with my teeth & petend to lob the thing at him.

BJB - good to see you back on the water. About blimmin time! All that extra space in the car park now.

 

[ricky_s]

Aha, so it was you that we passed coming back in to the harbour. Belated "Hello"

Hi Questor,

SWMBO was saying how nice she thought your boat looked. I was very jealous

 

[Richard Shead]

Nice touch

Thankyou for your concern, it is a valid thread drift. Mine are ZF 63 Hydraulic gear boxes, as soon as the engine is cut the drive is disengaged, the manufacturers confirm that they can be run free with out risk of damage, although there is a theoretical argument that there would be a fuel saving if locked.

you have thrown in the old spinning shaft debate, now I have not seen that for a while!

As I have said before a good few years on the Thames dodging sailboats is the best training one can have for Chichester Harbour....not hit one yet.

 

[Sgeir]

Do you still have one of these then?

Or have you upgraded and got an audio link to the men in the engine room?

Looks like he's had the upgrade;

 

[benjenbav]

BJB - good to see you back on the water. About blimmin time! All that extra space in the car park now.

I'd just like to apologise to anyone offended by the fact that I am now flying a French courtesy flag in UK waters - the shame of it. My elder daughter is currently obsessed with flags - world cup? - and she dug out the French flag and climbed up top to hoist it (well, I helped her a bit) before heading back to mum, shouting "vive la France" - the things they learn 'em in school nowadays, eh?

 

[EugeneR]

with the thousands of harbour users there are a tiny minority of these near miss (understandings?) each year...

I am not sure I would describe five to six near-incidents per mile from East Head to the harbor entrance as a tiny minority... it spoils it for both sides, really!

 

[fireball]

5 or 6 incidents each? or just you .... ? If it's just you then perhaps you're doing something wrong, no?

 

[PaulGooch]

Thankyou for your concern, it is a valid thread drift. Mine are ZF 63 Hydraulic gear boxes, as soon as the engine is cut the drive is disengaged, the manufacturers confirm that they can be run free with out risk of damage, although there is a theoretical argument that there would be a fuel saving if locked.

I'll bite.

as soon as the engine is cut the drive is disengaged

When the engine is running the oil in the transmission is cooled. If the prop is spinning because of the water passing over the bladed, the gubbins in the box are still whirring around, but not getting cooled. Prolonged whirring without cooling could cause the box to overheat. Works on the exact same principal as towing an automatic car.

Apologies for the Fred drift

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Hmm ... broadbrush!!

It is, but then I work for an American organisation so I have to look at the Big Picture from 40,000' (in a holistic way of course) ....

 

[fireball]

At 40,000' (12km) you'd be hard pushed to make out the largest Mobos, let alone the dinghies that are getting in their way!!

 

[DAKA]

I'll bite.



When the engine is running the oil in the transmission is cooled. If the prop is spinning because of the water passing over the bladed, the gubbins in the box are still whirring around, but not getting cooled. Prolonged whirring without cooling could cause the box to overheat. Works on the exact same principal as towing an automatic car.

Apologies for the Fred drift

The only fact I can offer is after checking the dealers manual and instructions I can confirm the manufacturer states that free running the Hurth ZF63 is not a problem at low speeds .

My interpretation of the difference between a cars auto box is the gears are still engaged, you cant push it in gear.

The ZF gearbox even in gear has no resistance at all and the prop shaft can be turned easily by hand. Once the engine is running the hydraulic pressure is built and it is only then that the gears have resistance.

 

[PaulGooch]

The only fact I can offer is after checking the dealers manual and instructions I can confirm the manufacturer states that free running the Hurth ZF63 is not a problem at low speeds .

My interpretation of the difference between a cars auto box is the gears are still engaged, you cant push it in gear.

The ZF gearbox even in gear has no resistance at all and the prop shaft can be turned easily by hand. Once the engine is running the hydraulic pressure is built and it is only then that the gears have resistance.

You can easily push a car in gear, there is no physical connection between the engine and transmission. With the engine running, the torque converter is spinning, the engine drives the outer "half" of the converter, which spins the oil in the converter, the oil then spins the inner "half", which in turn drives the gubbins in the gearbox. The gearbox has an internal pump that pumps the transmission fluid through the oil cooler. When you tow it, the prop will turn some parts of the gearbox, but the oil doesn't get pumped through the cooler. Without the oil being pumped through the cooler, the gearbox will overheat. The recommendation has always been to avoid towing auto's, but to never tow them for long distances or high speeds. Always used to be 30 miles max at 30 MPH.

I assume (and have always been told) the hydraulic marine box would suffer the same fate if the prop was turned log enough/fast enough, but stand to be corrected if that's not truly the case.

I'm sure you're correct though in that it won't hurt at low speeds, particularly for short periods.

 

[DAKA]

I'm sure you're correct though in that it won't hurt at low speeds, particularly for short periods.

6 miles out of a harbour isnt going to hurt for sure.

The manual does not restrict the distance you can tow .

This needs it own space really, and I havent got time right now to find web based links to the hard manuals I am reading from.

I was just pointing out for the purposes of this thread that raggies shouldnt assume that a stinker can avoid a boat that has just tacked into them or attacked unseen from astern as the mobo may not be able to get out the way in time for any one of a hundred reasons, i just gave one.

My dad has a volvo auto and I thought he leaves it in DRIVE as a handbrake, but could be wrong, I have only ever owned manual gearboxes.

 

[fireball]

Daka - I asked previously, but you missed or ignored it ....

How much time/space do you need to fulfill your obligations to keep clear ??

 

[[2068]]

Daka - I asked previously, but you missed or ignored it ....

How much time/space do you need to fulfill your obligations to keep clear ??

The colregs don't mention specific times or distances that a stand-on vessel must "maintain course or speed" for. They also don't cover the situation of a motorboat surrounded by a fleet of dinghys.

But if it wound up in court, and it was the case that a high performance racing dinghy had launched off a beach, accelerated to 15kts and after a few seconds had gone straight into the side of 10,000kg of Motorboat that was restricted to 8kts, I don't think the court would find entirely in favour of the dinghy.

 

[[2068]]

Daka - I asked previously, but you missed or ignored it ....

How much time/space do you need to fulfill your obligations to keep clear ??

... but to answer your question, anything closer than two or three boat lengths at 6kts starts to get a bit scary.

 

[fireball]

thank you... the reason I ask is that 90' (3 x 30'er or 2 x 45'er) is quite a large distance as far as most racing dinghies are concerned ... and whilst racing I'd happily give under 1/2 that length notice for another racing boat to keep clear (and expect the same back) - obviously we do not do them same for cruising boats, but it is nice to hear a rough guestimate of space required...

Incidentally - I'd also quite happily cross in front of a cruising boat anything more than around 1.5 of their boat lengths (depending on both vessels speeds) - I don't have an issue if that is done to me when I'm in the cruiser - but I wonder about other skippers?