Raggie rage. Was I in the wrong?

[PaulGooch]

6 miles out of a harbour isnt going to hurt for sure.

The manual does not restrict the distance you can tow .

This needs it own space really, and I havent got time right now to find web based links to the hard manuals I am reading from.

I was just pointing out for the purposes of this thread that raggies shouldnt assume that a stinker can avoid a boat that has just tacked into them or attacked unseen from astern as the mobo may not be able to get out the way in time for any one of a hundred reasons, i just gave one.

My dad has a volvo auto and I thought he leaves it in DRIVE as a handbrake, but could be wrong, I have only ever owned manual gearboxes.

Apologies for the off topicness, your dad leaves his auto car in PARK, as a handbrake, not DRIVE. In drive it'll roll down a hill. In park, a locking pin is engaged that prevents the gearbox turning, good as a handbrake if used for parking. Engage PARK while the car is moving and the locking pin sheers <ouch>.

 

[DAKA]

Thanks for explanation, argument accepted

If ever I need a long tow at speed I shall use a set of mole grips on the shafts, I currently only have one set on board, I will get a second set with some rubber for grip.

 

[DAKA]

Incidentally - I'd also quite happily cross in front of a cruising boat anything more than around 1.5 of their boat lengths (depending on both vessels speeds) - I don't have an issue if that is done to me when I'm in the cruiser - but I wonder about other skippers?

Sorry for late response , I had tried to reply twice but YBW cut off after a long response which is a bit annoying.......

1.5 boat lengths is probably generous if you are talking about berthing length.
my boat is 12.5m long but that includes the dinghy and anchor overhang neither of which need the deep water, the bow is happy in 8 inches of water.

I estimate your calculation would make a narrow channel almost 20m wide.

By the time I deduct the dinghy, bathing platform, bow sprint etc I reckon I only need an 8 m width of deepwater to turn round in which leaves a 12 meter gap for you to try and get past , thats about the width of the River Hamble up to the Horse and Jockey ,as long as you are going fast enough and duck under the overhangs I think you would be fine but you might find some of your flappy bits gets left behind

 

[fireball]

I estimate your calculation would make a narrow channel almost 20m wide.

Ah - Excellent .... and in the main body of Chichester all the channels (outside the moorings which are declared Narrow Channels by the HM) are well over 20m wide ... so we're back to Power gives way to Sail ... except when the sailboat is overtaking .. (or the mobo is at anchor - I'll give you that one! )

 

[Robin]

Thanks for explanation, argument accepted

If ever I need a long tow at speed I shall use a set of mole grips on the shafts, I currently only have one set on board, I will get a second set with some rubber for grip.

According to what I have read relating to displacement trawler yachts trying to run on one engine and trail the other, tactics like that do not work for more than a few seconds as there is a huge amount of torque from the trailed prop. There are hydraulic shaft brakes available but expensively because they need to be controllable from the helm and to automatically release if the engine is started.

My interest comes because when we finally escape to live in the USA it will be on such a trawler yacht to cruise the east coast plus possibly 'The Loop' circuit, 6,000 miles up the east coast from Chesapeake Bay, into Great Lakes, back through the middle to the Gulf and round Florida back to Chesapeake. There would be times when it would be very convenient to trail one engine and save fuel as well as engine hours.

 

[DAKA]

Ah - Excellent .... and in the main body of Chichester all the channels (outside the moorings which are declared Narrow Channels by the HM) are well over 20m wide

Agreed, thats the way I have always viewed the narrow channels issue in chichester.
You will need to expand on the rest of your post for full agreement

While on the subject can we agree it is alright to open up at the new Eastoke can where the speed restriction ends as it is obviously not a narrow channel.


If everyone is under power and keeping to starboard then we can navigate the channel at minimum wash until 1/2 nm past west pole, no problem.

But when sails are in use it becomes far more difficult to miss the boats zig zagging around and it is more appropriate to make full use of my boats manoeuvrability @ 20-30 knots .

 

[DAKA]

According to what I have read relating to displacement trawler yachts trying to run on one engine and trail the other, tactics like that do not work for more than a few seconds as there is a huge amount of torque from the trailed prop. There are hydraulic shaft brakes available but expensively because they need to be controllable from the helm and to automatically release if the engine is started.

My interest comes because when we finally escape to live in the USA it will be on such a trawler yacht to cruise the east coast plus possibly 'The Loop' circuit, 6,000 miles up the east coast from Chesapeake Bay, into Great Lakes, back through the middle to the Gulf and round Florida back to Chesapeake. There would be times when it would be very convenient to trail one engine and save fuel as well as engine hours.

Understood, thanks for advice.
I expect if I need a tow I will have more to be concerned about than an overheating gearbox anyway.

 

[magic-martinh]

So which rule has superiority over the other? - I don't know. Is the fact one was sail and one under motor the primary for deciding action, or, the relative positions? and where does it say so? Thanks.

 

[ricky_s]

Some more feedback.

I reported the near miss, and it was very near! To the Harbour Conservancy via the website.

They phoned me yesterday afternoon and for the record said that from my description of events I didn't do anything wrong and they would have spoken to the guy if I had thought to take down his sail number etc.

They also confirmed that the speed limit only applies to motor driven vessels.

 

[DAKA]

Some more feedback.

I reported the near miss, and it was very near! To the Harbour Conservancy via the website.

They phoned me yesterday afternoon and for the record said that from my description of events I didn't do anything wrong and they would have spoken to the guy if I had thought to take down his sail number etc.

They also confirmed that the speed limit only applies to motor driven vessels.

Good feed back Ricky.
I will report my last incident where a remote sailing dinghy flying a kite ,part of a race set full width of the channel tacked into my bow.

If enough of us report the incidents one of two things may happen

The harbour patrol should pursuit the clots on busy/windy days and question the skipper if he feels the speed is appropriate for the conditions.

At least a note can be added to the harbour guide reminding sailors of their obligations under col regs.

Perhaps these faster sailing boats should only be allowed from first light to 0900, the chichester water skiers are not allowed to ski during busy times.

 

[fireball]

<snip>part of a race set full width of the channel <snip>

Eh? Neither Race Instructions nor Conservancy by-laws prescribe which side or part of a "channel" you can sail through.

 

[nimbusgb]

Just because the sail boat is in the right he cannot just ram you and say its your fault . You should have seen him . So you are at fault but he is also at fault for not realising he had not been seen . He cannot just go charging around and expect everyone to get out of his way . There are many rules ColRegs perhaps now may be the time to have a look at them .

You have to have to eyes everywhere nowdays but remember if they are comming from behind . ie. overtaking then all you have to do is hold your course and speed and they have to keep clear of you . They cannot just come along side and expect you to move over .

You could also try one of the many courses that are run during the evening when its dark at 3pm and the boats all tucked up for the winter .

SWMBO has a Cockpit Companion . Very useful .

All Sailing Boats carry numbers on their sails if they race . Others just have numbers anyway . If you get agro again get the name of the boat and number and see if you can find which sailing club he belongs to . A word with the Commodore with regard to language may see him think twice next time .

A Raggie ..

I agree. A lot of people only read and interpret the rules as far as is convenient. Whether its IRPCS or the Highway code. Regardless of who is ultimately right or wrong I have seen people press on in their cars into the face of plainly lethal situations, convinced that their right of way will overcome the bang that is about to happen.

Both the rules for the prevention of collisions at sea and the highway code have caveats that state 'It is the responsibility of the 'pilot' to avoid a crash where possible regardless of any other rules'.

A little courtesy and consideration on both sides of the fence would prevent some bureaucrat getting their teeth into painting white lines and lanes all over the Solent and a lot of other places!

 

[DAKA]

Eh? Neither Race Instructions nor Conservancy by-laws prescribe which side or part of a "channel" you can sail through.

I think one of us is missing the point of this forum, its not just here for you to wind the stinkers up

I thought part of the idea was to have a forum where all are welcome to post our views and being able to see issues from others prospective should allow us all a more enjoyable and safer time on the water

setting a race so it blocks the stinkers from getting to sea from the marina isnt exactly in the spirit of such comradeship and is against the conservancy guidance.

when I used to motor out of chichester unrestricted fairway at 7 knots , I was amazed how selfish some stinkers were in opening up as soon as they are clear of the harbour (Eastoke), I am beginning to understand their attitude and wonder how much more selfish behaviour from raggies I can take before joining them ditto with Hamble, poole etc.........
surely there has to be common sense and compromise on both sides, it just appears to be all expected from the stinkers with nothing in return save abuse .

 

[fergie_mac66]

I think one of us is missing the point of this forum, its not just here for you to wind the stinkers up

I thought part of the idea was to have a forum where all are welcome to post our views and being able to see issues from others prospective should allow us all a more enjoyable and safer time on the water

setting a race so it blocks the stinkers from getting to sea from the marina isnt exactly in the spirit of such comradeship and is against the conservancy guidance.

when I used to motor out of chichester unrestricted fairway at 7 knots , I was amazed how selfish some stinkers were in opening up as soon as they are clear of the harbour (Eastoke), I am beginning to understand their attitude and wonder how much more selfish behaviour from raggies I can take before joining them ditto with Hamble, poole etc.........
surely there has to be common sense and compromise on both sides, it just appears to be all expected from the stinkers with nothing in return save abuse .

Agree completely (raggi here ) Trouble is pixie boats are probably also cyclists (not directed at any individuals)

 

[fireball]

I think one of us is missing the point of this forum, its not just here for you to wind the stinkers up

Er ... Pot, Pot, Pot calling Kettle black! ;P

I thought part of the idea was to have a forum where all are welcome to post our views and being able to see issues from others prospective should allow us all a more enjoyable and safer time on the water

setting a race so it blocks the stinkers from getting to sea from the marina isnt exactly in the spirit of such comradeship and is against the conservancy guidance.

Sorry - I state again, there is nothing in Racing Instructions or Conservancy By-Laws that prescribes where you may or not race - anymore than it prescribes where you may motor.

There is guidance from Conservancy to Clubs not to set start and finish lines across the whole navigable channel - which we all (ok mostly) try to adhere too, some exceptions are permanent start/finish lines outside the main body of the harbour.

There are two main skill areas to dinghy racing in Chi Harbour - 1) Sailing your boat fast(er than the competition) and 2) Using your knowledge to navigate in the most efficient manner.

No 1) is just plain common sense ...
No 2) is a little more involved as it means understanding the intricacies of flow around the harbour at various tidal and wind conditions. Sometimes it will be beneficial to be mid channel, other times you'll want to get out of the tide and then again it might just not matter ...

Of course, a 3rd, not mentioned above is the game of missing the other users of the harbour.

All this, whilst trying to overtake the racing dinghy in front and keep the others behind ...

Now you want to start introducing Lanes in which we can/can't race or travel one direction only ...

I've been racing in the harbour for nearly 30 years both evening and weekend outings - and the number of 'near misses' is so small I can't even remember when the last one was ... and I'm pretty confident that it is like that for the rest of our fleet too ... so it sounds like you want to introduce restrictions for the racing fleet for the sub 1% that get into close quarter incidents ...

 

[pteron]

Have to agree wholeheartedly there. Some years ago a friend of mine trolling for mackerel

[snip]

My friend replied suggesting they refer to Rules 17(b) and 18(b)(iii) and received a very nice letter from the solicitors apologising for having troubled him.

Rule 3(d)?

 

[timbartlett]

So which rule has superiority over the other? - I don't know. Is the fact one was sail and one under motor the primary for deciding action, or, the relative positions? and where does it say so? Thanks.

http://www.timbartlett.co.uk/MSN1781.pdf
That link goes straight to the definitive official version of the rules.
On the same site you'll find links to an excellent book that explains them in more detail

 

[pteron]

http://www.timbartlett.co.uk/MSN1781.pdf
That link goes straight to the definitive official version of the rules.

But it's out of date!

 

[Questor]

They also confirmed that the speed limit only applies to motor driven vessels.

This is soooo wrong in my opinion. It doesn't say on entering the harbour the 8 knot limit only applies to Mobos does it? Does this rule apply everywhere or just Chi harbour?

A speed limit should be just that, a speed limit. And it is there for a reason.

Sooner or later someone is going to get really hurt or worse. It does me in seeing kids swimming in the anchorage with hi-tek dinghys hooling around them at least double the speed limit. It's only a matter of time..........

 

[ricky_s]

Does this rule apply everywhere or just Chi harbour?

Can't say for anywhere else.

You are right about someone getting hurt though, if the guy had smashed into the side of my boat god knows what would have happened to him and his son.