Nina Lucia
Well-Known Member
Now That i have mast down, I am looking to fit Radar reflector on our Vancouver 27,
any suggestions what make shall we go for....
any suggestions what make shall we go for....
Radar Reflector
- Thread starter Nina Lucia
- Start date
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Anything is better than nothing, but judging by the post-Ouzo investigations into passive reflectors, they're only just better than nothing.
You can download the report here
My choice has been to go to an active transponder, rather than a passive reflector.
You can download the report here
My choice has been to go to an active transponder, rather than a passive reflector.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
I agree largely Ken but there is also a legal requirement to have one now. On a 27ft boat the "blippers" seem favourite as they work as good as most passive ones as far as I can see and are fairly light and easy to mount on the front of the mast. Some of the real cheapie things that look like cigar cases don't seem to work at all! My choice on my 37ft cat has been one of these permanently mounted with a SeaMe which I switch on in traffic zones and or fog.
bbg
Well-Known Member
+1
I have very little confidence that any passive radar reflector significantly increases the radar signature of a yacht.
I'll be carrying (and using) an active transponder across the Atlantic. I know of three makes: Sea-Me, Active X and Active'Echo.
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
My Twister has just had a SeaMe active radar reflector fitted...and a cigar shaped thinghy which is due for the bin.
Whats a blipper?
see http://sailingscotty.wordpress.com/
Whats a blipper?
see http://sailingscotty.wordpress.com/
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MASH
N/A
There seems to ba a lot more science in the Luneberg lens type of reflector than in any other passive type.
Essentially a Luneberg lens returns incoming radiation directly back in the direction from which it came rather than scattering it in all directions which is what flat sheets or crinkled tinfoil do in regular reflectors. They are not too heavy, need no wiring and are easy to mount.
Just a thought.
http://www.tri-lens.com/trilensweb12002001.htm
Essentially a Luneberg lens returns incoming radiation directly back in the direction from which it came rather than scattering it in all directions which is what flat sheets or crinkled tinfoil do in regular reflectors. They are not too heavy, need no wiring and are easy to mount.
Just a thought.
http://www.tri-lens.com/trilensweb12002001.htm
andygc
Well-Known Member
There is no requirement to carry a radar reflector. The recommendation is included in the MCA's MGN 349 (M+F)
SOLAS says "shall", but SOLAS is not law. The MCA publication is a recommendation and says "should"
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Dunno about the latter two, but there's also Echomax. Both Sea-Me and Echomax now produce active transponders which work with both X and S band radar. Earlier models were X band only. Both can have alarms built in, so that they beep when they are painted by radar. Might be useful if you're well offshore in an area where you have relaxed your lookout.
bbg
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's right - all radar reflectors are designed to return the radiation to it's original source. An octahedral reflector in the "catch rain" position is supposed to use the right angles to ensure that what goes in, comes straight back out.
If reflectors really did "scatter radiation in all directions", they would be stealth devices.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
They often are, especially with an angle of heel taken into account. Read the Qinetic report I linked to in an earlier post.
Coaster
Well-Known Member
Have you looked at the QinetiQ report Ken refers to in post #2? I was impressed by its findings when I first read the report several years ago. So far as I can tell the report gives the most authoritative information generally available to the average boat owner regarding radar reflectors.
The Large Tri-lens seems to be the best passive reflector for typical leisure use. I wouldn't bother with most of the others. During this year I hope to fit an EchoMax dual band unit.
If you are seriously interested in safety please read the QinetiQ report.
VicS
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
It must be remembered though that all the testing by QinetiQ was done under laboratory conditions, the only way in which the effects of other variables could be eliminated and a valid comparison made. It does mean that even the performance of the best passive reflectors can be dramatically affected by outside influences. It only needs an "out of phase" reflection from another part of the vessel, for example, to seriously reduce, if not eliminate, the echo seen on a radar set.
Since the publication of the QinetiQ report there have been several steps forward in the development of the active target enhancers.
sadly some of the rubbish pretending to be passive reflectors is still available!
bbg
Well-Known Member
I have read the QinetiQ report - when it first came out - and it convinced me of what I said in my first post: passive reflectors are next to useless. I was taking issue with what MASH seemed to be suggesting - that passive reflectors are designed to work by scattering radiation in all directions. They are designed to work by returning it to its source. Whether they actually do is a question that was answered by the QinetiQ report, largely in the negative. TK and Coaster - read my post again. I used the words "supposed" and "designed".
Perhaps I come at this from a racer's perspective: I don't like weight or windage. I just don't understand why anyone would fit a heavy, large, (largely) ineffective passive reflector when the active radar target enhancers are available.
Perhaps I come at this from a racer's perspective: I don't like weight or windage. I just don't understand why anyone would fit a heavy, large, (largely) ineffective passive reflector when the active radar target enhancers are available.
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Babylon
Well-Known Member
I went for a medium-sized Tri-Lens on our V27
Also a V27. Last year I replaced the old useless tube on a backstay with a medium-sized tri-lens mounted forward of the mast above the inner-forestay attachment. Less windage IMO than the Firdell Blipper vertical cylinder type, but I imagine just as in/effective, and (for the time being) a lot less money than an active reflector, EG SeaMe.
Clearly the problem is that large ships tend to declutter their radar sets to only show returns from other large ships, but I've always taken the view that something is better than nothing. Anyway I spent my money on a Furuno stand-alone radar (with the radome on a stern-mounted pole) so I can see what's out there, rather than relying on being seen.
Using our radar, I can clearly see all yachts within range as long as they're carrying some sort of passive reflector at the very least.
Babs
Also a V27. Last year I replaced the old useless tube on a backstay with a medium-sized tri-lens mounted forward of the mast above the inner-forestay attachment. Less windage IMO than the Firdell Blipper vertical cylinder type, but I imagine just as in/effective, and (for the time being) a lot less money than an active reflector, EG SeaMe.
Clearly the problem is that large ships tend to declutter their radar sets to only show returns from other large ships, but I've always taken the view that something is better than nothing. Anyway I spent my money on a Furuno stand-alone radar (with the radome on a stern-mounted pole) so I can see what's out there, rather than relying on being seen.
Using our radar, I can clearly see all yachts within range as long as they're carrying some sort of passive reflector at the very least.
Babs
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Nina Lucia
Well-Known Member
That is what I was thinking to do, it was between echo max 230 or midi tri- lens, what model radar did you get?
Regards
Ivan
Regards
Ivan
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Furuno 1623 Radar
Ivan
Standalone monochrome Furuno 1623 Radar + custom-fabricated s/s pole on transom + Scanstrut self-levelling radome (mast)mount.
PM me an email address and I'll send you photos of my installation.
Babs
Ivan
Standalone monochrome Furuno 1623 Radar + custom-fabricated s/s pole on transom + Scanstrut self-levelling radome (mast)mount.
PM me an email address and I'll send you photos of my installation.
Babs
PerformanceSailor
Well-Known Member
On Being Seen
Although radar brand choice is getting a bit afield from the the thread subject...
I did buy a Furuno 1715 (for the larger screen) after several foggy deliveries on boats with the 1623 model radar. Great radar model! Easy to read even at some distance.
As to reflectors, the classic Davis Echomaster is still the standard of the industry when correctly installed. Some years ago we even did an informal "test" where a friend on another sailboat that was returning a very poor image on-screen went below decks and brought up his radar reflector laid it on the cockpit seat. The instant he brought it up out of the cabin his boat showed a strong return on-screen.
My unscientific takeaway from this was that any reflector, even at less than optimal install angle, was much better than nothing at all.
LB
Although radar brand choice is getting a bit afield from the the thread subject...
I did buy a Furuno 1715 (for the larger screen) after several foggy deliveries on boats with the 1623 model radar. Great radar model! Easy to read even at some distance.
As to reflectors, the classic Davis Echomaster is still the standard of the industry when correctly installed. Some years ago we even did an informal "test" where a friend on another sailboat that was returning a very poor image on-screen went below decks and brought up his radar reflector laid it on the cockpit seat. The instant he brought it up out of the cabin his boat showed a strong return on-screen.
My unscientific takeaway from this was that any reflector, even at less than optimal install angle, was much better than nothing at all.
LB
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I've had a SeaMe installed for 10 years (and not yet updated) and so didn't fit a passive reflector. I bought one of those "cigar-shaped" jobs the continentals are so fond of as a spare that I could hoist in an emergency. I once sent SWMBO off in the Avon and tried to track her on the radar while she held it above her head and as far as I could tell it gave no return at all, though I can pick up ordinary mooring-buoys without difficulty.
multihullsailor6
Well-Known Member
I know of a sinking yacht which had a cigar shaped radar reflector on one of the stays. A container ship, alerted by EPIRB / MRCC to assist, could not "see" the yacht from 1M off and needed to be talked in to take rescue action.
IMO the Tri-Lens is the best passive option taking effectiveness, weight, windage and price into account.
Furthermore I would consider installing an AIS system before an active radar transponder.
IMO the Tri-Lens is the best passive option taking effectiveness, weight, windage and price into account.
Furthermore I would consider installing an AIS system before an active radar transponder.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
As always you have to take some of the more strident posts with a pinch of salt. Old Twister Ken may say that passive reflectors are little better than nothing, but he also has to justify a £500 purchase. It's the same with liferafts, a recent purchaser will be the most strident advocate.
A good (not rubbish cigar) reflector is a hell of a lot better than nothing, it's why Trinity fit octahedrals (£10) to their buoys. It's what we carry and on our return from Belgium last 'summer' we had several nasty rain squalls in the various TSS's. It meant that using passive AIS we radioed four ships in the 16 hour trip to discuss stand-on issues; despite heavy rain clutter all four had been monitoring us on radar for some time. £10 well spent and clearly working just fine thank you.
A good (not rubbish cigar) reflector is a hell of a lot better than nothing, it's why Trinity fit octahedrals (£10) to their buoys. It's what we carry and on our return from Belgium last 'summer' we had several nasty rain squalls in the various TSS's. It meant that using passive AIS we radioed four ships in the 16 hour trip to discuss stand-on issues; despite heavy rain clutter all four had been monitoring us on radar for some time. £10 well spent and clearly working just fine thank you.
