FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
I agree, it,s very handy in fog, but I think like you not vital, I have my first set, but never missed it for 30 yrs before, and power is a problem, for me anyway.
Radar Detectors
- Thread starter nickrj
- Start date
nickrj
Well-Known Member
Yes, I do have an engine for those wondering, and it has been my only way of recharging the batteries.
As for radar, basically it's not going to happen, unless someone loans me a unit (c'mon, everyones wintering anyway! *chuckle*), which is why I was asking about the detectors. I've made it this far (Southampton to Dover, Zeebrugge, through the canals, out through the North Sea Canal, all the way back down, through Brittany blah blah Biscary now La Coruna) and while I've pee'd in my pants a few times with fog, I've kept a good watch and only crashed into fishing buoys. I've done some other stupid things, but they had nothing to do with a lack of radar!
The Atlantic has been done over and over again radarless, and I guess it will be done again. The crux of it is, am I going to work for the next several months to pay for the unit, therefore missing this years crossing? I had thought about it, but really, no way!
A scan of the horizon every 20 minutes, for 20-25 days is what I've commited to.
nick.
As for radar, basically it's not going to happen, unless someone loans me a unit (c'mon, everyones wintering anyway! *chuckle*), which is why I was asking about the detectors. I've made it this far (Southampton to Dover, Zeebrugge, through the canals, out through the North Sea Canal, all the way back down, through Brittany blah blah Biscary now La Coruna) and while I've pee'd in my pants a few times with fog, I've kept a good watch and only crashed into fishing buoys. I've done some other stupid things, but they had nothing to do with a lack of radar!
The Atlantic has been done over and over again radarless, and I guess it will be done again. The crux of it is, am I going to work for the next several months to pay for the unit, therefore missing this years crossing? I had thought about it, but really, no way!
A scan of the horizon every 20 minutes, for 20-25 days is what I've commited to.
nick.
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
I had radar on my old boat and have decided not to buy one for the new boat.
Basically I found that in 4years of channel/biscay cruising (supposedly busy waters) it was hardly ever used. It was essential when crossing shipping lines in thick fog, but this only happened once in four years. It was helpful generally when crossing shipping lanes day or night - it made it easy to spot distant ships and take bearings over time (EBL) for collision course assessment. In fog, outside of shipping lanes, I found GPS chartplotters far more useful.
Based on these experiences I'm now going for AIS, outputted to the chartplotter.
Basically I found that in 4years of channel/biscay cruising (supposedly busy waters) it was hardly ever used. It was essential when crossing shipping lines in thick fog, but this only happened once in four years. It was helpful generally when crossing shipping lanes day or night - it made it easy to spot distant ships and take bearings over time (EBL) for collision course assessment. In fog, outside of shipping lanes, I found GPS chartplotters far more useful.
Based on these experiences I'm now going for AIS, outputted to the chartplotter.
captainslarty
N/A
Power, there's an interesting subject...
Really, its just another skill to learn, like woodworking, or fixing wayward shitters......
Many tend to shy away from the new, often for good reason !... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
But really, in the great scheme of boat dollars, ie, work it out yourself guys.. divide the value your home and life is worth to YOU by 100, or 1000 say..
there's ya boat dollars....
so, a new Chute is, errrrrrr is 2 buck.... ya don't need the chute for safety...
Or. to fit new upholstery is, say, 1 buck 70...
the radar is.... about 1 buck 50....
so, no worries, who´s counting.....
and as said, another skill, getting yer head around the blips n blobs.. but yer know what, a guy can teach me how to use an adz (sp?).... or how to to chip away n shape, or how to get a better straight line with a hand saw than a new fangled jigsaw...... and I soak it up..some you try to show that radar is a simple bit of kit.. (Is that IT !!!! . is the usual answer).. don't WANT to know, or find it somewhat boring, not realising the true value.
for the Arpa system guys, man !, you complicate it too much me thinks.. the dots on yer screen are the SAME as the ones (if) you can SEE them anyways.. JUST as you do with the constant bearing fudge, you do with Arpa... no worries.. simple stuff that most already do..... think hand bearing compass, or ships compass and a fixed mark, like a station, or a dead seagull, the live ones move...
then we gets to the power, so in boat dollars, solar is too bloody expensive re payback and convenience... running main power plant is sacrilege in BD´s.... petrol Genny is great value, or, you can do ´bout .....
so, to do ´bout . is an option, and a few BD´s can be saved, but the real value isn't apparent ´cos some haven´t grasped its absolute ease of use when you turn all the fangled crap off apart from the zone alarm and sleep / sweep....
We can go on to discuss beam width and object resolution perhaps ? , but, me thinks for the sensible of us, and for the use we put them to without RELYING on them... its just a case of, ooooops a blob, is it a problem blob ???
or, Am I gonna hit it.. well, its just a case of the hand bearing compass, imaginary... taking a bearing to the object,, this time its simple, cos the reference point isn't moving even... so if yer ref angle changes, OK, if not, take action..
radar is not a luxury.. its essential, a towed generator is good value, around an amp a knot ( A = Knots - (boat length
(in feet) / 35 ).. as an experimental / actual guesstimate,,
then work out the value of both as a profit and loss, add in the learning... and project it...
then the biggie, place a BD value on safety.. factor that in...
Its not just "handy in fog" its a tool that sees better than most, (me certainly lol).... all the time.. it doesn't NEED to sleep, you don't have to use it all the time....power is CHEAP in bd terms....
Just another "thing" to learn.. ya cannot appreciate what ya don't appreciate, and appreciation is familiarisation, leading to comfort zone..
when that point is reached, you would NEVER do without in terms of cost effectiveness and safety in proportion to even a self steering mechanical device.. you can semi balance the rudder, sails at certain points of the wind, and you can wait.. but if ya cant see, well ya cant see,
so, buy a better all round eye to help you for 1.5 bd´s........ no contest
(Again, my brief says I must point out that this is ONLY MY thought process..)
btw Bill, Dave is a good animal !!!!!
Really, its just another skill to learn, like woodworking, or fixing wayward shitters......
Many tend to shy away from the new, often for good reason !... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
But really, in the great scheme of boat dollars, ie, work it out yourself guys.. divide the value your home and life is worth to YOU by 100, or 1000 say..
there's ya boat dollars....
so, a new Chute is, errrrrrr is 2 buck.... ya don't need the chute for safety...
Or. to fit new upholstery is, say, 1 buck 70...
the radar is.... about 1 buck 50....
so, no worries, who´s counting.....
and as said, another skill, getting yer head around the blips n blobs.. but yer know what, a guy can teach me how to use an adz (sp?).... or how to to chip away n shape, or how to get a better straight line with a hand saw than a new fangled jigsaw...... and I soak it up..some you try to show that radar is a simple bit of kit.. (Is that IT !!!! . is the usual answer).. don't WANT to know, or find it somewhat boring, not realising the true value.
for the Arpa system guys, man !, you complicate it too much me thinks.. the dots on yer screen are the SAME as the ones (if) you can SEE them anyways.. JUST as you do with the constant bearing fudge, you do with Arpa... no worries.. simple stuff that most already do..... think hand bearing compass, or ships compass and a fixed mark, like a station, or a dead seagull, the live ones move...
then we gets to the power, so in boat dollars, solar is too bloody expensive re payback and convenience... running main power plant is sacrilege in BD´s.... petrol Genny is great value, or, you can do ´bout .....
so, to do ´bout . is an option, and a few BD´s can be saved, but the real value isn't apparent ´cos some haven´t grasped its absolute ease of use when you turn all the fangled crap off apart from the zone alarm and sleep / sweep....
We can go on to discuss beam width and object resolution perhaps ? , but, me thinks for the sensible of us, and for the use we put them to without RELYING on them... its just a case of, ooooops a blob, is it a problem blob ???
or, Am I gonna hit it.. well, its just a case of the hand bearing compass, imaginary... taking a bearing to the object,, this time its simple, cos the reference point isn't moving even... so if yer ref angle changes, OK, if not, take action..
radar is not a luxury.. its essential, a towed generator is good value, around an amp a knot ( A = Knots - (boat length
(in feet) / 35 ).. as an experimental / actual guesstimate,,
then work out the value of both as a profit and loss, add in the learning... and project it...
then the biggie, place a BD value on safety.. factor that in...
Its not just "handy in fog" its a tool that sees better than most, (me certainly lol).... all the time.. it doesn't NEED to sleep, you don't have to use it all the time....power is CHEAP in bd terms....
Just another "thing" to learn.. ya cannot appreciate what ya don't appreciate, and appreciation is familiarisation, leading to comfort zone..
when that point is reached, you would NEVER do without in terms of cost effectiveness and safety in proportion to even a self steering mechanical device.. you can semi balance the rudder, sails at certain points of the wind, and you can wait.. but if ya cant see, well ya cant see,
so, buy a better all round eye to help you for 1.5 bd´s........ no contest
(Again, my brief says I must point out that this is ONLY MY thought process..)
btw Bill, Dave is a good animal !!!!!
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
A scan of the horizon every 20 minutes, for 20-25 days is what I've commited to.
[/ QUOTE ]Is that possible, single handed? Besides, every 20 mins is not a high degree of security for you. Maybe an AIS would improve the odds for you? The radar detector is likely to keep going off even when there is no conflict whatsoever - you'd be turning it off, I suspect, at least when trying to doze.
A scan of the horizon every 20 minutes, for 20-25 days is what I've commited to.
[/ QUOTE ]Is that possible, single handed? Besides, every 20 mins is not a high degree of security for you. Maybe an AIS would improve the odds for you? The radar detector is likely to keep going off even when there is no conflict whatsoever - you'd be turning it off, I suspect, at least when trying to doze.
FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If one buys a radar, but does not have enough electricity, you have to add the cost of the solar panels or the wind-generator to obtain the necessary electricity to run the radar. Sometimes this would also mean more battery capacity. Therefore the prices quoted have to be doubled! N.B. This is true also for a lot of other equipment or luxuries on board, such as a fridge!
[/ QUOTE ]
True, personaly I don,t want to add more weight to my boat putting batteries in just to run the radar for watchkeeping, not to mention the Ks for panels and or wind genny to charge them. I have managed for 30 yrs minus a radar, and on long passages, with crew and without, yes it is nice in fog, but it is not indispensible, for me! BUT, I was very suprised to see a long ditance, short handed poster, say he would have a radar before a self steering system!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
If one buys a radar, but does not have enough electricity, you have to add the cost of the solar panels or the wind-generator to obtain the necessary electricity to run the radar. Sometimes this would also mean more battery capacity. Therefore the prices quoted have to be doubled! N.B. This is true also for a lot of other equipment or luxuries on board, such as a fridge!
[/ QUOTE ]
True, personaly I don,t want to add more weight to my boat putting batteries in just to run the radar for watchkeeping, not to mention the Ks for panels and or wind genny to charge them. I have managed for 30 yrs minus a radar, and on long passages, with crew and without, yes it is nice in fog, but it is not indispensible, for me! BUT, I was very suprised to see a long ditance, short handed poster, say he would have a radar before a self steering system!!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
captainslarty
N/A
Hiya bill, you dont need extra battteries, just the means to provide a reasonalbe amount of current, say, a towed genny.. the batteries provide the current in the slack areas..
Re, radar before slef steering, its an interesting debate.. the boat, certain types of course, can be reasonably balanced for a few hours. or certainly enough to sleep.. what the skipper cannot do is have a watch keeping facility that is automatic.. even if it means heaving too, the radar, for me, is more important. the same towed genny can provide power for the AP if needed, and at a coupla hundred for a tillerpilot compared to 3 point 5 k for a hydrovane, an easy winner, yes, as you know, I have the hydrovane, but given a choice between hv and radar, / tp / wp and towed genny, I have no issues with the result. compared to 3.5k, the others would add up to around 1500 quid..
Joe.
Re, radar before slef steering, its an interesting debate.. the boat, certain types of course, can be reasonably balanced for a few hours. or certainly enough to sleep.. what the skipper cannot do is have a watch keeping facility that is automatic.. even if it means heaving too, the radar, for me, is more important. the same towed genny can provide power for the AP if needed, and at a coupla hundred for a tillerpilot compared to 3 point 5 k for a hydrovane, an easy winner, yes, as you know, I have the hydrovane, but given a choice between hv and radar, / tp / wp and towed genny, I have no issues with the result. compared to 3.5k, the others would add up to around 1500 quid..
Joe.
FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
Joe I can,t be bothered writing a book, but you are talking rubbish!
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
I have to say that it does look like an SFP*
Substance fueled post..
Substance fueled post..
FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
But Joe Joe, be honest, you have absolulely no experience, and you are misleading other people, maybe dangerously!!!! sorry but it needs to be said to you.
AlanPound
Well-Known Member
I *think* he's saying (but can't be sure), that a reasonably priced tiller-pilot would be more important than a Radar, and supplementary charging for that wouldn't be too costly to organise.
But given the additional charging, that would probably cope with an inexpensive mono LCD Radar as well (bearing in mind that these things can usually be organised to switch on every 10 minutes, do a few scans, and alarm if they see anything within their guard-band, then switch off again, thus conserving energy)...
If that's what he is saying (and again, I can't be sure), then I have to say that I would agree with him...
I too (if on a tight budget) would have VHF, a basic GPS, a basic auto-pilot, a basic Radar, in that order, before anything more fancy (AIS, Radar detectors, colour chart-plotter, MARPA etc...)
Apart from that, I'll have some of what he's having (but don't expect me to post afterwards...)
But given the additional charging, that would probably cope with an inexpensive mono LCD Radar as well (bearing in mind that these things can usually be organised to switch on every 10 minutes, do a few scans, and alarm if they see anything within their guard-band, then switch off again, thus conserving energy)...
If that's what he is saying (and again, I can't be sure), then I have to say that I would agree with him...
I too (if on a tight budget) would have VHF, a basic GPS, a basic auto-pilot, a basic Radar, in that order, before anything more fancy (AIS, Radar detectors, colour chart-plotter, MARPA etc...)
Apart from that, I'll have some of what he's having (but don't expect me to post afterwards...)
FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
OK, within limits, I am no expert with ,lecery, but Having had radar and a small A.P a scan every 10 minsx24hrs., the radar guzzels more than a small AP, imho! Bill.
Troutbridge
Well-Known Member
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
captainslarty
N/A
intersting description of "no experience" Bill...
I have met single handers here who wouldnt sail back across Biscay without a radar after a nasty experience......
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
It is NOT difficult to power one when needed, not an issue really, more matter of determining priorities... and sorting out sensible charging regimes...
You say its not needed, but YOU needed it.. you say its livebale without, yes, certainly is.. but for a single hander, as was the point of this thread, it is a godsend, and simple to power, and taking into consideration the price of a wind vane, then not expensive at all, application, simple application and prioritisation. Some people are technophobes /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif no worries. some make the technology work for them.
Joe.
I have met single handers here who wouldnt sail back across Biscay without a radar after a nasty experience......
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
It is NOT difficult to power one when needed, not an issue really, more matter of determining priorities... and sorting out sensible charging regimes...
You say its not needed, but YOU needed it.. you say its livebale without, yes, certainly is.. but for a single hander, as was the point of this thread, it is a godsend, and simple to power, and taking into consideration the price of a wind vane, then not expensive at all, application, simple application and prioritisation. Some people are technophobes /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif no worries. some make the technology work for them.
Joe.
captainslarty
N/A
Perhaps a thread on how to power a small ap and radar for the non technically minded would be appropriate now.... ??? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Ludites are Ludites... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Ludites are Ludites... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
captainslarty
N/A
sorry, multiple post.. doh !
FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
The incident you snidely refer to Joe had nothing to do with radar, it was the self steering packing up that persuaded me to turn for Coruna, not lack of radar, I CERTAINLY DON,T NEED IT TO CROSS BISCAY, I have crossed the Atlantic twice without it once singlehanded non stop. I fitted radar in Coruna because it was a good deal, and for the first time I could afford it. Yes it,s great in fog, but I could live without it, and don,t use it as a watchkeeper, I could not be "hattered" supplying it with juice for that! And it is NOT SIMPLE to power, not if you are planning running it for hours.
To compare the price of radar to a wind vane is utter nonsence! anyone, I am sure who has done any short or single handed sailing would place a self steering system as a much higher priority than radar, regardless of costs. And to tell people that radar is simple to use, easy to interpret what is seen on the screen is stupidly dangerous, it requires a lot of skill and practice to use radar safely and confidently, and I for one would not claim to be an expert.
Wait until you have done a bit of cruising Joe, then PONTIFICATE!
To compare the price of radar to a wind vane is utter nonsence! anyone, I am sure who has done any short or single handed sailing would place a self steering system as a much higher priority than radar, regardless of costs. And to tell people that radar is simple to use, easy to interpret what is seen on the screen is stupidly dangerous, it requires a lot of skill and practice to use radar safely and confidently, and I for one would not claim to be an expert.
Wait until you have done a bit of cruising Joe, then PONTIFICATE!
captainslarty
N/A
/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Bill, when you have climbed down, how can the price comparison with a windvane be nonsense.. ?
it is ALL a matter of prioritisation as said.. and yes, basic radars are simple to use and interpret.
and, it wasn´t a snide comment at all. If thats how you want to interpret it, so be it. I apologise if it offended you.
Some make technology HARD WORK.. it isnt in reality.. and I still say, that for the price of a wind powered self steering, a small ap, radar and charging / storage systems is easilly achievable.. and certainly on a Contessa 26, a trim tab steering system is not exactly rocket science either..
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Bill, when you have climbed down, how can the price comparison with a windvane be nonsense.. ?
it is ALL a matter of prioritisation as said.. and yes, basic radars are simple to use and interpret.
and, it wasn´t a snide comment at all. If thats how you want to interpret it, so be it. I apologise if it offended you.
Some make technology HARD WORK.. it isnt in reality.. and I still say, that for the price of a wind powered self steering, a small ap, radar and charging / storage systems is easilly achievable.. and certainly on a Contessa 26, a trim tab steering system is not exactly rocket science either..
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
A
Anonymous
Guest
I'm not sure if I am following you, Joe. Surely you are not saying that you would have a radar ahead of an autopilot? I cannot imagine doing a long single handed passage without some kind of self-steering gear - it is daft. I don't fancy doing it without radar, either, actually.
I've avoided saying it until now but someone ought to.....
Can a single-hander keep watch in accordance with the colregs without a radar, at the very least? Considering the relatively low cost compared with the cost of other things in the West, is it acceptable behaviour to go to sea with no proper watch-keeping? Not a popular question, maybe, but it needs to be asked.
I've avoided saying it until now but someone ought to.....
Can a single-hander keep watch in accordance with the colregs without a radar, at the very least? Considering the relatively low cost compared with the cost of other things in the West, is it acceptable behaviour to go to sea with no proper watch-keeping? Not a popular question, maybe, but it needs to be asked.
FAITIRA
Well-Known Member
I don,t think a singlehander is conforming to the col regs even WITH a radar, I think it is misplaced confidence to believe a radar set sees as well as a human watchkeeper, I have seen many times, vessels that have not shown up on the radar screen, although other targets show up well at the same time. A single hander has to accept that he cannot conform to the col regs, and he is uninsured for any risks involving a collision, wether he has radar running at the time or not. I have insurance for 24hrs singlehanded, after that I accept I am on my own, in more ways than one.
