racing wisdom - the beat and mark rounding

[Birdseye]

Time for another thread of wise words from the knowledgeable. You have got a good start and are in clear air - how do0 you ensure you get to the upwind mark first and round it best in the fleet?

I have always found it a bit difficult to decide whether I can sail closer or would be pinching and losing vmg to the mark. And as for the time to tack, I often overstay on one tack for fear of having to tack another twice. For that matter. do you do just one tack or sevral in a tightening "cone" aiming at the mark? Again I have always thought that a tack costs me at least 30 secs in terms of lost speed so the fewer tacks the better.

Over to you.

 

[rwoofer]

Time for another thread of wise words from the knowledgeable. You have got a good start and are in clear air - how do0 you ensure you get to the upwind mark first and round it best in the fleet?

I have always found it a bit difficult to decide whether I can sail closer or would be pinching and losing vmg to the mark. And as for the time to tack, I often overstay on one tack for fear of having to tack another twice. For that matter. do you do just one tack or sevral in a tightening "cone" aiming at the mark? Again I have always thought that a tack costs me at least 30 secs in terms of lost speed so the fewer tacks the better.

Over to you.

Before the start I would have sailed upwind a bit to get a feel for the wind shifts ie. what a head and lift is like on each tack. I would also know what the tide is doing and where I want to be with respect to the tide - which side of the course etc. Once on the beat I would sail to the tidal strategy, playing the shifts, but most importantly finding clear lanes of air to do that in. Of course all the other boats conspire to get in the way of the pre-start strategy!

 

[Birdseye]

But is it quicker, all other things being equal, to do just one tack or to do several shaping a course down a cone towards the mark?

 

[roblpm]

But is it quicker, all other things being equal, to do just one tack or to do several shaping a course down a cone towards the mark?

I am no expert. But i have just been on a course........

If you only do one tack you have to go to the corner of the course. If there is a wind shift you can easily way overstand the layline. So my coach said dont go to the corners!

 

[roblpm]

Also try using raceqs. If you set up the race after it will tell you how much time you lost in each tack. Might be less than you think if you are good. If you are rubbish like us.........

 

[Quandary]

You are surely not expecting a definitive answer to this question, if there was yacht racing would soon get boring and even less people would be doing it. It is cheering though when once in a while you find yourself on the right side of a windshift however unexpected.
My advice is to start sailing oppies when you are seven, after about ten or fifteen years you have sussed out some of it, otherwise watch the guys that did that and are now winning every week, and practice and practice and ---------- but never settle for where you are, you are improving every time.

 

[RobbieW]

... If you only do one tack you have to go to the corner of the course. If there is a wind shift you can easily way overstand the layline...

There are (or were) those who advocate "bangin' the corners", presumably choosing the right corner to bang is key!

 

[rwoofer]

Unless you are very lucky "bangin the corners" is not going to work. In dinghy handicap races in small venues the skiffs sometimes do this simply because they are so fast and lose so much time in the tacks - minimising the number of tacks is what makes them "bang the corners"

 

[Birdseye]

But there must be some simple maths in this. Tacking a boat loses a certain amount of time however slick you are because a boat going through the wind has a brief period not under full drive and therefore slowing down. So the question is, whether those small losses are cancelled by a gain. The obvious question is whether the distance sailed through the water is greater - I would guess that it is compared with staying on one tack until you can lay the mark on the next tack.

And there is the second issue of mark rounding. I usually go for the wide in tight out sort of approach on a windward leeward course.

Finally any beating tips. For boats without polars, its quite difficult at times to work out the best angle - too tight and you slow down, too slack and you get boat speed but not direction. I use a Garmin handheld with the marks entered and looking at the VMG displayed, but it doesnt seem to vary much with angle in the 30 to 40 degree to wind range

 

[lpdsn]

But there must be some simple maths in this. Tacking a boat loses a certain amount of time however slick you are because a boat going through the wind has a brief period not under full drive and therefore slowing down. So the question is, whether those small losses are cancelled by a gain. The obvious question is whether the distance sailed through the water is greater - I would guess that it is compared with staying on one tack until you can lay the mark on the next tack.

There is. You can lose a huge amount on shifts or being taken the wrong way by another boat, so you've got to learn to tack efficiently. Sacrificing position because you're scared you'll mess up a tack i a problem that you've got to solve if you want to make progress.

It all starts from the helm. If the helm DOESN'T get it right the crew CAN'T get it right. So practice at taking the boat through the wind at the right speed to allow the crew to do their job properly and to gain as much distance to windward as you can with the least sacrifice of boat speed. Of course, the crew can still mess up even if you get it right, but they should be practising too.

There was a thread on SA about a year or two back where someone graphed the VMG in intervals of 10ms I think. The first thing to note is that at the start of the tack you gain as the boat speed is being used to push the boat to windward. You lose coming out of the tack.

It is extremely important that part of your practice focuses on coming out of the tack and re-gaining your speed as quickly as possible. Just slamming through the tack onto a close hauled course and sheeting in for close hauled sailing isn't the way to do it. Your trimmers need to know how to trim for acceleration and to trim in the final touch only when you're actually approaching your optimum close hauled speed. You'll be footing off immediately after the tack.

As for optimum close hauled speed. I guess you'll have to practice until you find the groove. Keeping the foils clean and fair makes a huge difference (on a deep draught leadmine with a very short chord foils I've seen fouling make 15 or 20 degs difference - but she tacks through 65 degs when fully prep'd and dry sailed.)

 

[Birdseye]

There is. You can lose a huge amount on shifts or being taken the wrong way by another boat, so you've got to learn to tack efficiently. Sacrificing position because you're scared you'll mess up a tack i a problem that you've got to solve if you want to make progress.

It all starts from the helm. If the helm DOESN'T get it right the crew CAN'T get it right. So practice at taking the boat through the wind at the right speed to allow the crew to do their job properly and to gain as much distance to windward as you can with the least sacrifice of boat speed. Of course, the crew can still mess up even if you get it right, but they should be practising too.

There was a thread on SA about a year or two back where someone graphed the VMG in intervals of 10ms I think. The first thing to note is that at the start of the tack you gain as the boat speed is being used to push the boat to windward. You lose coming out of the tack.

It is extremely important that part of your practice focuses on coming out of the tack and re-gaining your speed as quickly as possible. Just slamming through the tack onto a close hauled course and sheeting in for close hauled sailing isn't the way to do it. Your trimmers need to know how to trim for acceleration and to trim in the final touch only when you're actually approaching your optimum close hauled speed. You'll be footing off immediately after the tack.

Not talking about the issue of tacking technique - I agree with every word you say. But the basic physics / mechanics of a tack means that you must lose something however slick you are. Or to put it another way, if it were possible to have two identical boats on exactly the same spot at the same time, boat A tacks and B doesnt, then after the tack B will be a few meters nearer the mark than A.

As for optimum close hauled speed. I guess you'll have to practice until you find the groove. Keeping the foils clean and fair makes a huge difference (on a deep draught leadmine with a very short chord foils I've seen fouling make 15 or 20 degs difference - but she tacks through 65 degs when fully prep'd and dry sailed.)

Misunderstanding each other. I'm well aware of the importance of a clean bottom and usually surprised when doing OD duty that so many of the fleet race with fouled hulls. Instead the issue is the boats polars. Do you make better VMG at 35 to the wind or footing that bit faster and free-er at 38? or whatever the figures are in your boat. Certainly I have found that there is merit in overstanding a tack by maybe 20m and getting a bit more boat speed. but at a worse course angle.

 

[dunedin]

But is it quicker, all other things being equal, to do just one tack or to do several shaping a course down a cone towards the mark?

Yes one tack will be quicker in an ideal world with rock steady wind, no tide and no other boats.
Then add in the real world and ...... it depends!

But often rookies do tack too often. As the first response said, key thing is knowing the strategy for the beat - what is the best side for wind shifts, wind strength, tides etc. Then try to work there - without banging the corner unless it is somewhere like Lake Guarda where the wind bends can be so predicable

 

[Quandary]

But there must be some simple maths in this. Tacking a boat loses a certain amount of time however slick you are because a boat going through the wind has a brief period not under full drive and therefore slowing down. So the question is, whether those small losses are cancelled by a gain. The obvious question is whether the distance sailed through the water is greater - I would guess that it is compared with staying on one tack until you can lay the mark on the next tack.

And there is the second issue of mark rounding. I usually go for the wide in tight out sort of approach on a windward leeward course.

Finally any beating tips. For boats without polars, its quite difficult at times to work out the best angle - too tight and you slow down, too slack and you get boat speed but not direction. I use a Garmin handheld with the marks entered and looking at the VMG displayed, but it doesnt seem to vary much with angle in the 30 to 40 degree to wind range

Wind tends to oscillate, it is not constant so simply applying maths as if it was a static situation does not work.
As for the wide approach mark rounding, sadly you are not alone in doing that but you are aware that as you turn toward the mark your change of attitude confers inside overlap rights on nearly everyone else behind you? A boat immediately behind you now has control of you, not difficult for him to get in front.
Your Raymarine instruments will give you instant vmg because it refers to real wind and speed through the water, your gps does not know what the wind is doing.

 

[Javelin]

When I race I race to win and that means beating the other boats.
That means I cover from 5 minutes before the start till the end, unless I'm 100% sure my main competitors have missed something.
Say we have a fleet of ten boats in a series.
I'm lying 3rd over all after a few races and have identified that my main competitors are 1,2 4, and maybe 5.
I want to win so I need to keep a close watch on 1 and 2 and watching brief on 4 and 5.
It would be highly unlikely for 1 and 2 to take flyers off to a corner unless they were very lucky.
4 and 5 are far more likely to take a chance so I'll be more circumspect before going the same way they do.
I couldn't care less about boats 6 to 10, in the grand scheme they offer me little reliable information.

When I see boat 1 and 2 tacking I need to understand why, and fast, before I make a decision, usually there is an obvious reason and given you are either covering from in front or just behind that gives you a heads up on your own decision making.

The trick is have a specific reason before tacking and how much it will gain you.
If the decision is based on "I think it might benefit" then stand on until you Know for sure or both 1 and 2 have gone.

What I guess I'm trying to say is, you're racing usually three other boats in a fleet, at the back, in the middle or at the front.
You know who and where they are.
Develop a strategy to beat these boats don't sail in blissful ignorance of your direct competitors.

I've won a couple of championships without actually winning a race. (but it helps if you do....)

 

[lpdsn]

Not talking about the issue of tacking technique - I agree with every word you say. But the basic physics / mechanics of a tack means that you must lose something however slick you are. Or to put it another way, if it were possible to have two identical boats on exactly the same spot at the same time, boat A tacks and B doesnt, then after the tack B will be a few meters nearer the mark than A.

An oft quoted figure is two boat lengths for a fairly good tack and up to 5 for a fairly bad one - that would be amongst well sailed IRC boats. In the SA post I referred to there was an argument put forward using GPS data that it could be a lot less than that. A bit of back and forth in the usual style of Sailing Anarchy and I don't remember an agreed conclusion.

Misunderstanding each other. I'm well aware of the importance of a clean bottom and usually surprised when doing OD duty that so many of the fleet race with fouled hulls. Instead the issue is the boats polars. Do you make better VMG at 35 to the wind or footing that bit faster and free-er at 38? or whatever the figures are in your boat. Certainly I have found that there is merit in overstanding a tack by maybe 20m and getting a bit more boat speed. but at a worse course angle.

Definitely misunderstanding. I was trying to point out that if you determined your optimum close hauled angle with a dirty bottom it wouldn't be valid with a clean bottom and v.v.

35 seems a low figure for a production cruiser racer. My first guess is that you'd be pinching at that angle. If you're getting a better VMG at the 'worse' course angle I would suspect that is your optimum angle and you aren't overstanding. Practicing against another boat is a great eye opener - you may not sail at the same angles, but if you try going up the beat together, close enough to minimise tactical considerations and far enough apart to minimise the effect of wind shadow etc you might both learn what your optimum angles are.

 

[mrming]

The trick is have a specific reason before tacking and how much it will gain you.

This is a good piece of advice.

The coach who said don't bang corners is right - there are always exceptions of course, but doing a one-tack beat is usually setting yourself up for a fall - as has been said earlier if there's a shift you can end up overstanding the mark by a long way.

In terms of upwind angles, there are different modes you can put the boat in, which you'll have seen if you've watched the Americas Cup on the telly.

Every boat has it's angles for best VMG upwind which will vary according to the sea state. However in the period after the start it can be more important to hold your lane than to get best VMG.

To do this you'll put the boat in high pointing mode - main high up the traveller (on some boats the boom will be well above the centreline), firm leech, headsail trimmed in tight, you may have to pinch a little if you have a high pointing boat ahead or to leeward. Once you're in clear air you can then foot off a few degrees if you feel you get better VMG that way.

As to how you know what's best for your boat there are two approaches - data and feel. If you're that way inclined and have good enough instruments you can record everything and gradually work out the best configuration for different wind strengths and sea states.

For club racing though, this is pretty OTT, and it's more practical to have a good understand of the principles of sail trim, then go out there and try to apply them. You'll gradually get a feel for what works and when, enabling you to get the maximum speed out of your boat. You then just have to do everything else right!

 

[flaming]

I find it hard to believe that a set of polars do not exist for a Starlight 35. I'm sure an email to Stephen Jones would produce something to work to.

And when you do have them, make them simple to read. So for a windspeed I need to be doing this speed. Too fast, head up, too slow, bear off. Sod angles, your instruments won't be calibrated to be accurate enough, ours aren't. And if you find your log over or under reads, just adjust your targets to suit. And please don't be one of those muppets who thinks the GPS speed will do for this, it won't.

As to beat tactics, I think in cruisers you have to have a reason to tack. That could be traffic, header, shallow water or just reached the layline, but I'm not a fan of doing loads of tacks in a yacht.
Whilst I agree that planning for a 1 tack beat is generally a bad idea, sometimes it just happens that way, especially in light winds and short beats. Tacking hurts much more in the light.
Several years ago I did a couple of weeks sailing as tune up crew with the Paralympic sailors. It was extremely enlightening, and one of the things their coach was keen on was trying to quantify the gains by tacking / not tacking in certain circumstances. So for example, should you tack on a 1 degree header? a 5 degree header? 10? 15?... At what point, for your boat, does tacking on a header become imperative? It's an exercise in trigonometry, working out the time to parity between tacking for a better angle and the distance loss to tack.
So lets say you think it costs you 30m to tack. How long sailing on a 1 degree lift before you've got that 30m back? And a 5 degree lift?
Then you need to compare that to what the wind is doing. So for example if the wind on your race course is oscillating 5 degrees with a 2 minute period, and you've calculated that it's a 30s time to parity for your boat, then obviously you should tack on the headers. But what if it's a smaller oscillation or a shorter time? Does it still pay?

But Birdseye... From everything you've said about your racing, this is not what you need to be focusing on right now. You need good speed and good maneuvers. I'd always rather have a 0.1 knot, or even less, speed advantage than Ben Ainslie calling tactics and a 0.1 knot speed deficit.
And the kite has to go up within 3 boatlengths of the mark, get gybed exactly when you want, and come down cleanly, every time. Once you're doing that you can start worring about the details of tactics.

I think I've said before, but the easiest way to make your boat go faster round your race track is to sail with at least 8 people on board.

 

[mrming]

I'd always rather have a 0.1 knot, or even less, speed advantage than Ben Ainslie calling tactics and a 0.1 knot speed deficit.

They say boatspeed makes a great tactician.

I actually have the opposite problem at the moment. Most of the time I have great boatspeed, but I'm racing around a million buoys in a series of tidal ditches, and I would often trade 0.1 of a knot for half a clue about what state of the tide that strange back eddy appears at, or how much water is really in that little gap over there.

 

[westhinder]

I find it hard to believe that a set of polars do not exist for a Starlight 35. I'm sure an email to Stephen Jones would produce something to work to.

I have looked and not found any, either for Starlight 35 or 39.
So Birdseye, if you should find them, or approach Stephen Jones about them, I would be most interested in the polars for the 39. I only occasionally do a club race, but it is always good to try and sail the boat to its potential.

 

[Birdseye]

I have looked and not found any, either for Starlight 35 or 39.
So Birdseye, if you should find them, or approach Stephen Jones about them, I would be most interested in the polars for the 39. I only occasionally do a club race, but it is always good to try and sail the boat to its potential.

Thanks guys but the idea of these threads is to try and get some discussion going on the racing board rather than out out my problems.

As it happens I tried Stephen Jones when I first got the boat but didnt get anything back. In any case there are lots of other boats racing without polars and therefore difficulty in working out best speed/ angle. Could be that my view is a bit biased in that most of mt=y racing isnt laid leeward windward courses but round channel markers and cardinals where the beat is never exactly to windward and tides are strong. For that reason I dont understand Flamings comments about the GPS - surely the VMG that matters isnt the VMG to windward but the VMG to the mark. Its getting to the mark fast that is important.