KAM
Well-known member
Anyone found a source for small quantities. I am looking for the genuine article not the R134A replacement stuff advertised on ebay for car air conditioning.
R134a refrigerant
- Thread starter KAM
- Start date
RichardS
N/A
Small quantities might be difficult because of the need for it to be supplied in a pressure container. However, the auto stuff is genuine R134A. Sometimes it's supplied containing oil, sometimes dye, sometimes both and sometimes neither ..... so you need to buy the type you need.
Richard
Richard
Heckler
Active member
I was lucky and found some on ebay, mfr in Lithuania.
vyv_cox
Well-known member
Rules have been tightened considerably and officially a certificate is needed to purchase it. Son Owen had to do a week-long course in refrigeration to get his certificate even though he had his own company building, repairing and maintaining fridges for a number of years.
KAM
Well-known member
Thanks Vyv. I read your article which was very helpful. I'm familiar with refrigeration systems having lived through R503 being replaced with R22 then R134a and the subsequent doom and gloom and price rises on each before they are uneconomic to use. I was hoping someone here might have found a source for small bottles of R134a. Most if not all the adverts mentioning R134a refills don't in fact appear to be R134a. I wonder if anyone has any experience of using these other gasses.
Jabs
Member
You can easily buy bottles of 134a on ebay. It is technically not something you are supposed to use unless 'qualified'.
The bottles are disposable and use an adaptor to fit a standard gauge set.
Tony
The bottles are disposable and use an adaptor to fit a standard gauge set.
Tony
KAM
Well-known member
Do you have a link.
Jabs
Member
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-R-134...283049?hash=item2cc83207e9:g:wOwAAOSwevlaRcVE
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Air-...773391&hash=item3f8755588e:g:evwAAOSwoJZXSF~5
Its not difficult. Just put what you want in 'search ebay'.
The above links get you going.
You will need gauges.
DO NOT Overfill!
Tony
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Air-...773391&hash=item3f8755588e:g:evwAAOSwoJZXSF~5
Its not difficult. Just put what you want in 'search ebay'.
The above links get you going.
You will need gauges.
DO NOT Overfill!
Tony
KAM
Well-known member
Hmm. Might work. R134a is 1,1,1,2 tetrafluroethane. The STP autofreeze hazard data sheet has the composition as 50 -100 % 1,1,1,2 tetraflouroethane. Thats quite a big range if it's only 50% one wonders what the other 50% is. Presumably something non hazardous as its not mentioned on the safety data sheet. Maybe its a way of getting round the F gas regs. There's also the oil compatibility problem. Has anyone got any practical experience of using this.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
I doubt very much that those top ups actually contain any R134a Tony. If you read the listing, it never actually states that it does. Be a bit daft allowing DIY cans of refrigerant to be sold, when everyone in the trade has to be licensed.
KAM
Well-known member
Hazard data sheet for halfords EZ freeze says its 83% R134a.
superheat6k
Well-known member
R134a sold in commercial quantities generally comes in 12.5 or 58 kg cylinders. Since last year it has risen in price from ~£8 / kg to today at >£50 /kg. Presently it is making my job quoting for typical system quantities of 30 - 60 kg very difficult.
I charged a water chiller system last week with 58 kg of the stuff.
R134a is a single molecule, so anything other then 100% is not R134a.
R134a is also a major component in most R400 series refrigerants - e.g. R407C, R134a is not a replacement for R22 unless you can accept a 30% loss of cooling capacity, or fit a higher throughout compressor.
It is also an HFC and is in the process of a substantial phase down throughout the EU., with this year at a 46% reduction since 2015 which is why it has become stupidly expensive. The industry is expecting the back door routes will gradually reduce as all HFC used in Europe has to be accounted for.
To buy the stuff in the UK a firm has to be registered as a F Gas firm and all engineers handling it must be registered to a company and have at minimum a level 4 C&G 2079 or equivalent. Trade users are mostly level 1. We have to go to great lengths to show our usage is legitimate, where and how much we use has to be properly documented.
The stuff Halfords and Ebay sell mostly has oil entrained with is generally a PAG grade, whereas your boat's fridge will almost certainly use a POE grade, and they should not be mixed. That said I cannot say what the effect of mixing a PAG and POE would be.
I know it is an eternal source of annoyance for boat owners, but the rules are intended to help protect the environment from gas escapes to atmosphere and in my own business we go to huge lengths to decant the gas properly, and not vent it, as is suggested in too many publications on dealing with boat fridges. After all you don't chuck rubbish out of your car window, so why should it be OK to vent refrigerants.
The phase down will see most HFCs virtually extinct by 2030, although R134a does have lower GWP equivalent available, R513A, which we have just started to use, but you won't be able to buy this unless you are a bona fide trade company.
Car air conditioners are using a low GWP refrigerant R1234YF, which offers a very similar operating characteristic, but it is mildly flammable.
I charged a water chiller system last week with 58 kg of the stuff.
R134a is a single molecule, so anything other then 100% is not R134a.
R134a is also a major component in most R400 series refrigerants - e.g. R407C, R134a is not a replacement for R22 unless you can accept a 30% loss of cooling capacity, or fit a higher throughout compressor.
It is also an HFC and is in the process of a substantial phase down throughout the EU., with this year at a 46% reduction since 2015 which is why it has become stupidly expensive. The industry is expecting the back door routes will gradually reduce as all HFC used in Europe has to be accounted for.
To buy the stuff in the UK a firm has to be registered as a F Gas firm and all engineers handling it must be registered to a company and have at minimum a level 4 C&G 2079 or equivalent. Trade users are mostly level 1. We have to go to great lengths to show our usage is legitimate, where and how much we use has to be properly documented.
The stuff Halfords and Ebay sell mostly has oil entrained with is generally a PAG grade, whereas your boat's fridge will almost certainly use a POE grade, and they should not be mixed. That said I cannot say what the effect of mixing a PAG and POE would be.
I know it is an eternal source of annoyance for boat owners, but the rules are intended to help protect the environment from gas escapes to atmosphere and in my own business we go to huge lengths to decant the gas properly, and not vent it, as is suggested in too many publications on dealing with boat fridges. After all you don't chuck rubbish out of your car window, so why should it be OK to vent refrigerants.
The phase down will see most HFCs virtually extinct by 2030, although R134a does have lower GWP equivalent available, R513A, which we have just started to use, but you won't be able to buy this unless you are a bona fide trade company.
Car air conditioners are using a low GWP refrigerant R1234YF, which offers a very similar operating characteristic, but it is mildly flammable.
KAM
Well-known member
The issue seems to be compatibility of the PAG oil in automotive recharge kits which are exempt from the F gas regs with the POE oil in the danfoss units. The reason for PAG in automotive seems to be cost. As far as I can find out POE oil seems to be used in Danfoss compressors to give backward compatibility in case the compressor is fitted to an older system which has used an older gas such as R12. Can't find any evidence that mixing PAG oil with POE would cause a problem yet but still looking. Some unauthenticated comments on web forums suggest there shouldn't be a problem. What is the experience of people using automotive top up kits with PAG oil.
Hot Property
Well-known member
A very comprehensive answer to the original question Trevor.
I have a question vaguely related, could you remind me of the total charge volume on a Type 42 destroyers chiller system please?
I have a question vaguely related, could you remind me of the total charge volume on a Type 42 destroyers chiller system please?
KAM
Well-known member
So has anyone actually used an automotive recharge kit.
ProDave
Well-known member
I wil probably get shot down, but what would happen if I used some of this F gas exempt automotive refrigerant to top up a heat pump that is supposed to use R410A
Would it work? Would it work but not as eficciently? Would it wear out quicker? Would it be dangerous?
Would it work? Would it work but not as eficciently? Would it wear out quicker? Would it be dangerous?
RichardS
N/A
I've used the automotive kits on R134A cars many times and it has always been successful apart from one car where I overcharged it and had to vent off.
I've never tried it on a marine fridge. Presumably you would need the correct adaptors and the knowledge of what pressure it is supposed to run at?
Richard
superheat6k
Well-known member
It won't be dangerous but R134a is a far lower pressure refrigerant and the result would be a loss of at least 60% cooling capacity, and for a heat pump it would virtually stop pumping any heat. The reduced gas flow could cause the compressor to overheat and burn out, and if the equipment has a low pressure switch it would almost certainly cut out and simply not run. If the fan is high pressure controlled it would never run, so there would be a risk of compressor damage from lack of discharge cooling across the condenser, excessive temperature in the discharge and likely failure in short order.
R407C would be a better choice, but even this would see a substantial reduction of at least 30%, with likely similar ill effects.
R410A availability will become a real problem and not just for boats - it is still offered in lots of new equipment - Chillers, Heat pumps, Multi room systems (VRF), and also is specified for household air source heat pumps now in wide use for improving domestic energy efficiency, yet it is in severe short supply resultant to the F Gas phase down and has no non-flammable replacements.
Mildly flammable gases with similar operating characteristic are becoming available for equipment completely designed from scratch with an inclusion of a fire risk assessment in all aspects of an equipment's design, but this would not be practicable for an older item of equipment, and to use a flammable refrigerant on a non designed for system would in my professional view would be way beyond foolhardy.
R410A is presently ~ £90 / kg, if you can find the stuff, as most of the available 2018 quota is already used.
I am astounded Halfords are still legally allowed to sell these R134a car recharge kits, and in view of the hoops we have to jump through to use the stuff professionally it would be my preference to see them banned form sale, plus the car AC maintenance firms forced to abide by the same rules as the rest of the cooling industry as far as leak checking and not adding gas to systems known or suspected to be leaking.
Nick (Hot Property) - stop being a troll and add something useful on here for a change, but to answer your question presently all Type 42's chillers hold precisely nil refrigerant !
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KAM
Well-known member
Just trying to find out if anyone has used an automotive recharge kit on a marine refrigeration system.
lw395
Well-known member
The DIY car kits seem to be a few hundred grammes of R134A, plus some oil and some magick substance which hopes to recondition all the rubber seals that leak.
So 80% or so R143A.
My experience is that if car aircon stops working, it's because it leaks and adding a bit and hoping won't get you anywhere.
